Wake up and read and act on what the community really wants...

[LiquidAtoR]

But really if you want people and the mods to take you serious, don't make statements like "As I see it the staff is a whole bunch of mini dictators, under the rule of the big boss. And each is doing things their way, makes up the rules as they go, as it suits them. "
Is hardly going to endear them to you, or your cause.

You obviously are missing the point in whole (as the poster before you). I'm referring to the absense of rules and guidelines for the community and staff (a point I made very clear in the further part of my post). They can do "as they like" because there's no guidelines.

Its also a contradiction, one minute there all a bunch of dictators all under the rule of the big boss, then they do what the hell they like, Doesn't sound like being ruled by a big bad dictator. Perhaps in that statement , there is some truth such as "each doing things in there own way", sure maybe its a little un organized on there end. But i don't see any of this dictatorship.

See my above comment.

Sure HB is far from perfect, but i find for my small botting needs its perfect, and for the price i paid for HB it saves me much time and keeps me playing a game i would of stopped playing if i couldn't cheat.

Found a bug today In STV it wont pick up the Booty bay fly path because its so damn complicated, my bot could of been stuck for hours with people going omg look a BOT, but i don't give a shit, i don't have to spend hours grinding things i have done before, or wasting my real life, i learn from it, and not whine.
If i was gonna whine i would at least, try not to add any insults either.

The bigger part of this belongs on the bugtracker along with a error log and all other stuff that they would like to know. I checked, and don't see this issue posted anywhere (how's that for mentality).
For the latter, again you seem to miss the whole clue. I'm not insulting anyone. You read what you want to read, and understand what you want to understand. Try it again please.

Thanks liquid. I can find myself in many of your sentences! Ill add some own impressions tomorrow. My bed?s calling again xD

/wave

I will read your thoughts on this tomorrow then. Goodnight.

 

[namaze]

/SIGN

This is a good thread, and I don't feel like writing anymore, but I do agree to the big things, and I do disagree with those of you that are trying to put this thread down, because if you don't know what he is referring to then you probably aren't on these forums enough for it to matter.

Its also a contradiction, one minute there all a bunch of dictators all under the rule of the big boss, then they do what the hell they like, Doesn't sound like being ruled by a big bad dictator.

Perhaps in that statement , there is some truth such as "each doing things in there own way", sure maybe its a little un organized on there end.

But i don't see any of this dictatorship.

Well, I think thats the point hes trying to make, all of the little dictators do what they want, because they are not in constant communication with the big boss, and they don't have any rules or guidelines they have to follow. If you read this entire thread, you would know that he asked specifically for guidelines for the little dictators to follow, and for all the little dictators and the big boss to have meetings.


Anyways now that that is out of the way, the main thing I would like to see near the end of this thread, is, not a list of demands, but as Hawker posted earlier, what you want the admins to do. Now I know you can't find that in one line, but the main thing I am seeing in this post is about every 5th post at least someone has a new idea and a few people post that they like the idea or add on to it. I just hope that someone goes through here and takes all of them up and puts them in one nice post so that the admins know for a fact what it is we want out of this thread.

 

[sainter222]

/AGREED !

It seems like this forum is single handedly run by TONY ! From what i know hes just a normal member who was generous enough to help out and is now a mod... but i dont see any other staff helping out !!!!

I post logs etc all the time and never hear back from any of the staff....

I want this bot to develop but if the staff arnt listening to us they wont get anywhere.

 

[lordmorbious]

im liking where i see this thread goin. i do agree there is a lack of help. i mean i ask a ? in forum and it gets answered. thank you to those that answer. but the things i ask should be available in the forums. in a forum made by the admins so its updated regularly. like a few videos i saw. showed me some stuff i needed to know. but was an older version or something. it wasnt step by step as things have changed since it was made. and there are still features im sure im not using cause i have no idea how. or for that matter. what they are.

i am an experienced botter. just very new to this format. but i will say. this forum is much better then the one that was used for the previous bot i was using. and the customer support was a joke. thats why im here..lol. but that means learning a new program. so please bare with me. and help the HB/GB noob...lol

 

[LiquidAtoR]

/SIGN

This is a good thread, and I don't feel like writing anymore, but I do agree to the big things, and I do disagree with those of you that are trying to put this thread down, because if you don't know what he is referring to then you probably aren't on these forums enough for it to matter.
snap...
Anyways now that that is out of the way, the main thing I would like to see near the end of this thread, is, not a list of demands, but as Hawker posted earlier, what you want the admins to do. Now I know you can't find that in one line, but the main thing I am seeing in this post is about every 5th post at least someone has a new idea and a few people post that they like the idea or add on to it. I just hope that someone goes through here and takes all of them up and puts them in one nice post so that the admins know for a fact what it is we want out of this thread.

I was planning on consolidating everything myself in the end (if I'm still home by then), and present that result to the staff as outcome of this discussion.

/AGREED !

It seems like this forum is single handedly run by TONY ! From what i know hes just a normal member who was generous enough to help out and is now a mod... but i dont see any other staff helping out !!!!
I post logs etc all the time and never hear back from any of the staff....
I want this bot to develop but if the staff arnt listening to us they wont get anywhere.

There are a few more people with (super)moderator status besides tony who are busy in one way or another (at least I assume they are since they have that status), but maybe not visibly active.
I think that regarding your logfiles posted but not "listened" too, here we come back to the point of communication between users and staff/developers.
If there was some form of feedback on it, it would make you feel good that you reported the issue, motivates you to post another error, and gives you the idea that they actually do something with it.
Whether they do or not, is up to their discretion, but at least you know you are doing it for some greater good (and on a sidenote prevent the bug being reported hundreds of times, each in a new post).

im liking where i see this thread goin. i do agree there is a lack of help. i mean i ask a ? in forum and it gets answered. thank you to those that answer. but the things i ask should be available in the forums. in a forum made by the admins so its updated regularly. like a few videos i saw. showed me some stuff i needed to know. but was an older version or something. it wasnt step by step as things have changed since it was made. and there are still features im sure im not using cause i have no idea how. or for that matter. what they are.

i am an experienced botter. just very new to this format. but i will say. this forum is much better then the one that was used for the previous bot i was using. and the customer support was a joke. thats why im here..lol. but that means learning a new program. so please bare with me. and help the HB/GB noob...lol

Well then, welcome here
If you are a experienced botter (used other bots before), I don't think you will have many issues getting GB or HB to start and run. It's "quite easy" once you get the hang of it.
I botted since the glider days, and have to say this is one of the easier bots around to use, and besides it does a good job in most area's.

 

[Tony]

there are 2 Moderators
Me and ski(on holidays atm)
and also i have to manage Live Support service at the same time

 

[LiquidAtoR]

there are 2 Moderators
Me and ski(on holidays atm)
and also i have to manage Live Support service at the same time

According to the list it's not only you and ski.
Erenion, MaiN and Nesox have the same status here as the two of you (Super Moderator).

If they have that rank for another reason than being able to alter each and any post in this forum, it might be a good idea to make a rank for that reason.
It would prevent confusion and makes clear who really deals with the forums and who not.

And besides that I still think you guys are way understaffed for a site with a memberbase this size.

 

[Forb1d]

MaiN and Nesox are both dev's. I dunno about Erenion however...

They both have the ability to edit posts and such, but their jobs are to edit the software, not mod the forums.

 

[Tony]

According to the list it's not only you and ski.
Erenion, MaiN and Nesox have the same status here as the two of you (Super Moderator).

If they have that rank for another reason than being able to alter each and any post in this forum, it might be a good idea to make a rank for that reason.
It would prevent confusion and makes clear who really deals with the forums and who not.

And besides that I still think you guys are way understaffed for a site with a memberbase this size.

Me and ski are the moderators
Main,Nesox and erenion are devs
its easy to see who is moderating the forums from the post counter

 

[Beans]

The first thing to say is the simplest. Honorbuddy is the most advanced WoW bot ever developed. Its well over 100,000 lines of code. What we are doing with questing is very hard and as such you can expect us to mess up from time to time.

The reason QuestOrder came last is that its the third attempt to get questing working. Its not like we deliberately failed to make the first two attempts work - ideas that look good when you are planning can hit obstacles that prevent them from ever succeeding.

CC developers and many profile developers get copies of releases days in advance of release. As far as I know, no ccs are being broken and all profiles that were made for HB1 over a year ago still work.

A number of people have said that including the Questing means we ought not to call the current release stable.

Questing is beta. We used to have a release that we called Stable because we left questing out. People hated that, my Inbox was flooded with frustrated users who wanted the option to have questing in Stable so we put it back as an option and marked it Beta. We reserve the option to do Test releases so naturally we call the release we use for gold farming our selves Stable. We have no plans to change this approach.

I hope this communicates why we work the way we do.

I like you but Im going to go ahead and go out on a limb. You guys rushed HB2... you rushed because of the Omega Bot / Lotus threat. It was a gamble and in the end, it was not necessary (hindsight is always 20/20). Right now HB2 is a mess... The very name suggests pvp and its probably the worst bot on the market for pvp, lets be honest here. Whatever the reasoning may be, it fails in a few departments. On the flip side, HB2 does some things very nicely. My advice means nothing, but if I was you I would get Apoc involved in some way and start a rewrite or at least tear down the basics of what is broken and rewrite that part.

 

[LiquidAtoR]

MaiN and Nesox are both dev's. I dunno about Erenion however...
They both have the ability to edit posts and such, but their jobs are to edit the software, not mod the forums.

Erenion used to be a CC and plugin developer who joined the development team in time.

Me and ski are the moderators
Main,Nesox and erenion are devs
its easy to see who is moderating the forums from the post counter

I know who is what (more or less at least ), but for other (new) users it might not be that clear, high postcount or not.

Making new ranks based of other ranks is like 2 clicks, a dropdown and filling out 3 or 4 colums (at least it used to be that way in vBulletin).
You can base the new rank on the rights of a existing rank (in this case a super moderator if that's necessary they have the rank), fill in new title "Developer" and away you go.

That's part of Organizing things (one of the keywords that came up during the discussion here).
Just a small thing, but as I wrote in the OP, many small things make a big thing eventually.

I like you but Im going to go ahead and go out on a limb. You guys rushed HB2... you rushed because of the Omega Bot / Lotus threat. It was a gamble and in the end, it was not necessary (hindsight is always 20/20). Right now HB2 is a mess... The very name suggests pvp and its probably the worst bot on the market for pvp, lets be honest here. Whatever the reasoning may be, it fails in a few departments. On the flip side, HB2 does some things very nicely. My advice means nothing, but if I was you I would get Apoc involved in some way and start a rewrite or at least tear down the basics of what is broken and rewrite that part.

Maybe in laying out the way to go, they did rush things a bit. As I stated somewhere in a former post it was maybe not only this what you quoted (the Omega/Lotus threat, if any), but also a community that was pushing for releases which in the end were not entirely ready for general use.
Then eventually a timeline was laid down (which is not a good idea imho. People may perform well under pressure of a time/deadline, but when the time comes near, corners are cut to make that deadline).
That made the community push even more for releases.

As was suggested several times by different people troughout my time here on the forums.
Stop adding new things for the time being (unless it's needed), and pick up current bugs.
Work them out and then start adding new features again so there's a solid working ground.
According to Hawker and other developers I spoke the solid ground to go on is HB without the "questing module" which seems to be cause for most bugs at the moment.

Now it's time I gonna hit the sack too, it's 1.30 AM here, so time for bed.
Goodnight, and keep it clean, neat and on-topic please.

 

[jumpclone]

Its because of the questing part to honourbuddy that i bought this bot, i have tried pvp, works ok,grinding too, but questing is the way forward imo,

 

[jacobhwrd]

I have to say that for the most part I have to agree with you. I am SOOOOOO excited to see how this questing works out that words truly cant describe it. But your right.........i dont know what the relationship is between the dev team and the people who make the CC's and the questing profiles are but it seems (after this last release) to be 0. Now most of the questing profiles seem to be worthless and those ppl put alot of time and effort into it. I think that the major creators of the CC's and questing profiles should get a heads up from the devs to know that there profiles will need to be redone. Even if its a one way email from the staff of what to expect it would help (help prevent, NOT ERADICATE) what has seems to have happened with the latest update to the questing. Last but not least you REALLY shouldn't have to fear any type of repercussion for you post. This is a forum. Thats what its here for, so a community of ppl with the same common interest can share there opinions and thoughts (excluding trolls)......

EDIT: I know that what has happened to the questing was DEFF in the best interests of everyone who uses it but it just seems like it could have been handled a little better. BUT, this is how things likes this are prevented in the future......mistakes have to be made in order to improve.

 

[Tag]

I agree with Liq 100%.

 

[theholyone]

i just read the first one or two lines of each block. you really think a wall of text will make people change? get real. im taking a neutral stand on this and happily wanting on the next generation of HB

 

[achiko]

I dont think its as bad as Liq is trying to tell us but I dont think its as good as the devs and mods are telling us..

The main problem is that the forum is flooded by newbs who don't invest enough time to actually understand what they are going to do before doing it and therefore end up failing. I myself was one like that and as such I dont think anyone will consider this post important but to the ones reading this:
Try to learn everything about this bot that is possible. I know it can be frustrating to actually have to search the forums multiple times and work yourself through tons of pages but once you succeed you will find that this is the best developped bot that has ever been for WoW.

On the other side there is some words to be told to the devs:
You guys are running the most subscribed WoW bot out there and you end up with a community which doesnt share CC's and profiles (not even as paid ones) and for the worst part you dont succeed in actually giving the support that is needed out there. These are serious problems you should adress. Either try to make default 1-80 profiles (at least for grinding) which run somewhat stable (plz noone flame me now that there are stable ones out there, especially the 1-60 part is EXTREMELY hard get over) or try to give profile devs some sort of reason to continue their work as there seems to be no way but donations which is ridiculous.. Paying for profiles/CC's while you already pay for the bot and if youre not Lifetime user this amounts to quite a sum. And for the support part: GEEZ get some ppl to help ski and Tony.. Poor basterds trying to solve all the user's problems (especially since Ski's on vacation now lolz).

And the most important part: I dont see you addressing these problems.. Actually I dont even know you think or even care about them since I cant spend hours grinding the forum for vital posts of yours. All I can look through mostly is the announcements and changelogs of new versions. What if someone who knows where all these things are heading sat down, spent as much time as Liq did to write this post, and just write a freaking answer. We dont demand you to answer every damn stupid user's (not even mine) post but at least try to address the common problems and MAKE IT PUBLICLY AVAILABLE -.-

You cant say you aint got the time or the resources to do this. And if you say you already do and tell us to gtfo then something is freaking wrong with you and you guys seem to be damn lazy (which cant be if you developped such a great bot, right?!).

Any input on this might be great. But *sigh* this post and maybe even the possible answer will just be flushed down somewhere in the archives without more than 15 ... what am I saying.. 2 or 3 ppl reading it..

 

[BiggBullz]

my 2cp is simple as this. The programmers (maybe not all) get paid because we purchase this product. They release so many versions the cc designers and profile creators cannot keep up and they do it for free.

When i joined hb1 was great stable version with tons of profiles (ally and horde) all lvl ranges. now a new hb2 comes out so fast if u really look the ONLY people who can use this are coders who make their own profiles and cc's.

It also seems most of the people who suggest "ohh its not hard to make a profile or cc" are the mod's who make their own and share very few with the public. Many times i have seen in a newly posted profile "I am finished using it i no longer have a char in that lvl range so now i will release it for all of you, but will not be updating it for next version since as i said i dont have a char in that lvl range any longer"

I understand they may think its easy enough to make profiles or cc's but i didnt buy this thinking i would have to create the other half of the product to use it. i purchased it because it had many available options for me to use.

like Liquidators post says the communication and chaos in the forums and chat lately has led MANY a cc designer or profile maker to NOT release their product to the public. That leaves us who purchased 1/2 a product and are not C++ savy to fen for ourselves. what its leading up to is PM's to pay for cc's or Profiles that work or continue to use the buggy ones and hope they get updated. If you read the question or problem posts they are usually cc issue or profile issue BUT its only because of the HB version changes. If i had known upfront that i would have to purchase cc's and profiles (with each new beta) i would have factored in the cost of those and probably would be using a different bot.

I like hb and have used it well but im not C+ savy so i am stuck waiting or using an older version and picking from 1 of the 2 profiles that work with it. whats the easiest way to get banned? run the only profile in the forums for xx lvl to xx lvl like every other non programmer

Also i have been using this now since april. and posted my first error/ question With a log and it got skimmed over except from another community member NO mods And it seems to be the complaint or problem quite a few people are having. Acknowledge that you see our issue i POSTED A LOG so dont flame me and say no log no help. Like liquid says all we want is to know that you see the issue and what/if you plan to do about it. thats fair enough for a product we DID pay for. i mean the cc dev's and profile creators are always responding to buggs and errors and even help YOU guys figure out the bugs in HB by recreating the errors it causes in the cc's (at times) its not like i always have stupid problems or posts im pretty computer savvy and can figure out the options on a given program but i lack the programming skills to write my own stuff. I know i have it better then ALOT of your customers who are not even computer savy let alone have any idea how to program

 

[LiquidAtoR]

Its because of the questing part to honourbuddy that i bought this bot, i have tried pvp, works ok,grinding too, but questing is the way forward imo,

It is the way forward, and once done it's gonna blow all others out of the water.
But it's the questing that's also the unstable part of HB.

I have to say that for the most part I have to agree with you. I am SOOOOOO excited to see how this questing works out that words truly cant describe it. But your right.........i dont know what the relationship is between the dev team and the people who make the CC's and the questing profiles are but it seems (after this last release) to be 0. Now most of the questing profiles seem to be worthless and those ppl put alot of time and effort into it. I think that the major creators of the CC's and questing profiles should get a heads up from the devs to know that there profiles will need to be redone. Even if its a one way email from the staff of what to expect it would help (help prevent, NOT ERADICATE) what has seems to have happened with the latest update to the questing. Last but not least you REALLY shouldn't have to fear any type of repercussion for you post. This is a forum. Thats what its here for, so a community of ppl with the same common interest can share there opinions and thoughts (excluding trolls)......
EDIT: I know that what has happened to the questing was DEFF in the best interests of everyone who uses it but it just seems like it could have been handled a little better. BUT, this is how things likes this are prevented in the future......mistakes have to be made in order to improve.

/Agree, but if there's noone to point out issues, lack of stuff and sorts, nothing is gonna change for anyone.

I agree with Liq 100%.

Thanks...

i just read the first one or two lines of each block. you really think a wall of text will make people change? get real. im taking a neutral stand on this and happily wanting on the next generation of HB

That's your right and choice to do so just to read 1 or 2 lines.
But then this is not a place for you to comment, since you can't have a clue on what the whole context and goal is of this topic in the first place.

I dont think its as bad as Liq is trying to tell us but I dont think its as good as the devs and mods are telling us.

snap...

Any input on this might be great. But *sigh* this post and maybe even the possible answer will just be flushed down somewhere in the archives without more than 15 ... what am I saying.. 2 or 3 ppl reading it..

Thank you for reading it all, overthinking it and structure your reply.
There's time been put into in that and I appreciate it.
I had to snap it a bit to make it not too big in the collective post.
Thanks for your time writing the post.

As was mentioned before. Organizing the infrastructure would be a good step in the right direction.
Also the suggestions (sub)forum would be a good step forward (if properly used and moderated).

Surely there are lots of other suggestions to be made (for example a central FAQ for new users, update the video guides that are made by the staff, put everything in 1 place for new users to find, and keep them up to date with changes made to HB/GB).

When i joined hb1 was great stable version with tons of profiles (ally and horde) all lvl ranges. now a new hb2 comes out so fast if u really look the ONLY people who can use this are coders who make their own profiles and cc's.

snap...

Also i have been using this now since april, and posted my first error/ question With a log and it got skimmed over except from another community member NO mods. And it seems to be the complaint or problem quite a few people are having. Acknowledge that you see our issue i POSTED A LOG so dont flame me and say no log no help. Like liquid says all we want is to know that you see the issue and what/if you plan to do about it. thats fair enough for a product we DID pay for. i mean the cc dev's and profile creators are always responding to buggs and errors and even help YOU guys figure out the bugs in HB by recreating the errors it causes in the cc's (at times).

I also would like to thank you for reading it all, overthinking it and structure your reply.
These are the constructive posts I can work with.
No rants or flames, but simply expectations and the current situation side to side.
I had to snap it a bit to make it not too big in the collective post.
Thanks for your time writing the post.

 

[Apoc]

Lots of good comments, and responses.

I have to agree on the communication part. It's been... lacking.

There are a few things you need to keep in mind, and this is coming from a developer with quite a few years of experience: Nothing ever goes as planned.

Just the fact that HB can automate questing, is a giant leap forward into 'next-gen' bots. That feat alone is incredibly hard to get working properly. (Without a giant database of easily query-able information)

HB also works on x64, and non-English clients. (Aside from a few bugs here and there of course.)

No matter how much 'planning' goes on ahead of time, to come up with a 'perfect' solution, it's near impossible to make that come to reality. Especially when more than 1/2 of your work is based on whatever information you can pull from another company's program.

People seem to think that developers can simply "think the logic, and make it work". It's simply not true. Logic is very simple to create in your head, or write down. However, implementing it into a program that can actually execute it, and deal with all sorts of possible errors, and fringe-cases, is almost impossible. The fact that the bot even works, and the nav is as advanced as it is now, is a feat all in itself.

Lastly; there's a very big issue with promoting end-user usability, and allowing a good bit of extensibility, for both advanced programmers, and people who just want to tinker.

The API can't be too advanced, or too 'simple'. Trust me, I'd love a more robust API, with proper .NET contract usage, and all the other fluff that makes my life easier as an advanced programmer. However, there would be no new releases for CCs/Plugins from anybody other than an advanced developer, who understands the concepts.

Change is inevitable. I do think better release notes (and changelogs) should be given with every new release. The main issue is, with every little change that is made, someone doesn't like it, and will claim it as 'broken'. That then turns into a multitude of threads from people who don't understand that Me.GotTarget was changed to Me.HasTarget.

From what I can tell, the devs do a good job of giving you at LEAST 2 releases to make changes to CCs plugins. (They usually mark certain things as Obsolete, with the correct type to use) However, with plugins/CCs that aren't maintained, they'll eventually become broken.

And lastly, as I've said before, the devs don't always reply to an issue on the forums. 99% of the time, they're checked in the bugtracker (admittedly, not always updated) because it's simply easier to consolidate what needs to be done, and get right to the issue, instead of having to read through countless posts that have nothing to do with the actual issue. Just because they don't reply, doesn't mean they don't know about it.

 

[LiquidAtoR]

Lots of good comments, and responses.
I have to agree on the communication part. It's been... lacking.
There are a few things you need to keep in mind, and this is coming from a developer with quite a few years of experience: Nothing ever goes as planned.

snap...

From what I can tell, the devs do a good job of giving you at LEAST 2 releases to make changes to CCs plugins. (They usually mark certain things as Obsolete, with the correct type to use) However, with plugins/CCs that aren't maintained, they'll eventually become broken.
And lastly, as I've said before, the devs don't always reply to an issue on the forums. 99% of the time, they're checked in the bugtracker (admittedly, not always updated) because it's simply easier to consolidate what needs to be done, and get right to the issue, instead of having to read through countless posts that have nothing to do with the actual issue. Just because they don't reply, doesn't mean they don't know about it.

Thanks for your reply here.
This way people can get a bit of insight in how things go "on the other side of the fence".