Wake up and read and act on what the community really wants...

[LiquidAtoR]

The problem with svn repositories and bleeding edge releases would be that there would be no CC and profiles to test the new features. Unless the devs provided rudimentary versions and left it to the community to make more complex ones later.

If there would be no CC or profile to test it with, how could the developers release anything and saying it works

 

[Nomfather]

Perhaps a beta section on the forum could be a good move forward.
Upon clicking the beta section, you are prompted with a popup, with a beta disclaimer on it.
Those that accept it, can test the beta versions but cannot complain about it unless it is constructive.
A few more forum staff would help with pruning this section and revoking access to it if they complain non constructively.

Main problem i see nowdays, is that people have the "we want it all and we want it now" mentality.
And that just doesnt work with a bot.
It requires a lot of time and testing to perfect, something the team cant possibly do internally as fast as people demand it.
So maybe this "beta section" idea might be an idea to consider.

All other stable versions are outside of it.

 

[LiquidAtoR]

Perhaps a beta section on the forum could be a good move forward.
Upon clicking the beta section, you are prompted with a popup, with a beta disclaimer on it.
Those that accept it, can test the beta versions but cannot complain about it unless it is constructive.
A few more forum staff would help with pruning this section and revoking access to it if they complain non constructively.

Main problem i see nowdays, is that people have the "we want it all and we want it now" mentality.
And that just doesnt work with a bot.
It requires a lot of time and testing to perfect, something the team cant possibly do internally as fast as people demand it.
So maybe this "beta section" idea might be an idea to consider.

All other stable versions are outside of it.

I complety agree with what you wrote regarding the mentality of people.
And a beta section is also a viable option, alike the download repository for development/bleeding edge copies.
Good idea!

 

[Hawker]

I'm not gonna quote your first post because it's kinda big, but I wouldn't have said better.

Organization is the keyword, seems that people are developing as they think instead of planning it, questorder should be released since day 0, and that was just an example.

...snip....

The first thing to say is the simplest. Honorbuddy is the most advanced WoW bot ever developed. Its well over 100,000 lines of code. What we are doing with questing is very hard and as such you can expect us to mess up from time to time.

The reason QuestOrder came last is that its the third attempt to get questing working. Its not like we deliberately failed to make the first two attempts work - ideas that look good when you are planning can hit obstacles that prevent them from ever succeeding.

CC developers and many profile developers get copies of releases days in advance of release. As far as I know, no ccs are being broken and all profiles that were made for HB1 over a year ago still work.

A number of people have said that including the Questing means we ought not to call the current release stable.

Questing is beta. We used to have a release that we called Stable because we left questing out. People hated that, my Inbox was flooded with frustrated users who wanted the option to have questing in Stable so we put it back as an option and marked it Beta. We reserve the option to do Test releases so naturally we call the release we use for gold farming our selves Stable. We have no plans to change this approach.

I hope this communicates why we work the way we do.

 

[Xanathos]

While having a bit more structure, communication, and organization wouldn't hurt... I find it hilarious that people are getting up in arms about the structure and organization of a group that is basically hacking someone else's program (very well mind you).

This isn't some sort of large company that has checks and balances... I'm just happy that the program works at all. =)

 

[tozededao]

The first thing to say is the simplest. Honorbuddy is the most advanced WoW bot ever developed. Its well over 100,000 lines of code. What we are doing with questing is very hard and as such you can expect us to mess up from time to time.

The reason QuestOrder came last is that its the third attempt to get questing working. Its not like we deliberately failed to make the first two attempts work - ideas that look good when you are planning can hit obstacles that prevent them from ever succeeding.

CC developers and many profile developers get copies of releases days in advance of release. As far as I know, no ccs are being broken and all profiles that were made for HB1 over a year ago still work.

A number of people have said that including the Questing means we ought not to call the current release stable.

Questing is beta. We used to have a release that we called Stable because we left questing out. People hated that, my Inbox was flooded with frustrated users who wanted the option to have questing in Stable so we put it back as an option and marked it Beta. We reserve the option to do Test releases so naturally we call the release we use for gold farming our selves Stable. We have no plans to change this approach.

I hope this communicates why we work the way we do.

I assume you tried to make the bot self inteligent to do the quests by itself without people telling where to pick, but as you can see the bot can never be inteligent in a way that knows where to pick new quests, and knowing that if he is going to complete a quest near a place that has quests and these quests are on the same spot as the one he had before, its better if he picks the new quests.

 

[LiquidAtoR]

A number of people have said that including the Questing means we ought not to call the current release stable.
Questing is beta. We used to have a release that we called Stable because we left questing out.
People hated that, my Inbox was flooded with frustrated users who wanted the option to have questing in Stable so we put it back as an option and marked it Beta.
We reserve the option to do Test releases so naturally we call the release we use for gold farming our selves Stable.
We have no plans to change this approach.

I hope this communicates why we work the way we do.

You beat me to it regarding the HB version without questing being very impopulair to say the least.
Now that you explained it here, it would be a good thing to post this along with the release.
The bot is stable, questing is not. By using questing you accept bugs and strange behaviour in the bot.

While having a bit more structure, communication, and organization wouldn't hurt... I find it hilarious that people are getting up in arms about the structure and organization of a group that is basically hacking someone else's program (very well mind you).
This isn't some sort of large company that has checks and balances... I'm just happy that the program works at all. =)

There are people who care for a community in bigger or smaller amounts, especially when they invest (alot of) time into it or in it's related things (think about a CC, a plugin, a profile etc).
When you see the mishaps you want to do something about it to improve it for everyone.
If making suggestions every now and then doesn't do anything, it's time for bigger measures.
That's the main reason I did what I did, hopefully with as result an improvement for everyone.

I assume you tried to make the bot self inteligent to do the quests by itself without people telling where to pick, but as you can see the bot can never be inteligent in a way that knows where to pick new quests, and knowing that if he is going to complete a quest near a place that has quests and these quests are on the same spot as the one he had before, its better if he picks the new quests.

The bot is self intelligent in a way that it has databases to get his information from. Only the information from that database (WoW itself) doesn't always match the reality.
The bot's intelligence will come from a questing profile. As good as the profile is, that good the bot will perform, so that's up to the profile makers.

Eventually it will be a 1 click thing I guess (I don't know the roadmap for HB), but for now it still requires the attention and human input.

 

[tozededao]

As Mordd once said, I love the new navigation system, which replaced waypoints but is it really better to our grinding? It should have came out with a route AI, avoiding mobs, because sometimes the shortest path is the hardest one, agroing groups of mobs and dying.

 

[LiquidAtoR]

As Mordd once said, I love the new navigation system, which replaced waypoints but is it really better to our grinding? It should have came out with a route AI, avoiding mobs, because sometimes the shortest path is the hardest one, agroing groups of mobs and dying.

Agreed, but where would you post such a suggestion without it being moved, discarded, closed or forgotten merely an hour after you posted it...

 

[tozededao]

There should be a forum part for it, having 1 moderator filtering the suggestions.

 

[LiquidAtoR]

There should be a forum part for it, having 1 moderator filtering the suggestions.

This has been suggested before, and has been suggested again in this topic...

Maybe a suggestion forum should be created?

I would not put just any moderator on this, because suggestions are gonna be made for several categories like HB, GB, Forums, Chat, Bugtracker, Sites etc etc.
It would have to be someone with sufficient knowledge of all to see it's doable at all or impossible.
When impossible give a reason and close the topic but leave it there for reference (or you get more of the same suggestions).
When deemed possible, open it for discussion and/or vote and see about it.
However making such a forum will also require some rules, and a suggestion template.
If you want to suggest something you have to be able to "proof" it's use and give a described application for your suggestion.
And not just say "I want this and that" because that's not suggesting, that's demanding.
If it serves the general interest I think it should be looked at and thought over.

 

[Mordd]

CC developers and many profile developers get copies of releases days in advance of release. As far as I know, no ccs are being broken and all profiles that were made for HB1 over a year ago still work.

what? I get mine days after it went public

 

[LiquidAtoR]

For tonight I take my leave from the forums and moderating this topic I started.
In general I would say it was fruitfull, even though not many people replied.
Some staffmembers are awake now so suggestions are passed on (and hope for fertile soil).

I request that if you would like to continue discussing the topic here, do so in a neatly fashion.
That means stay on topic, no ranting, no flaming, no pointing fingers etc.

Not doing so might end up in this topic getting closed indefinately and that would mean my efforts would be in vain.

Thanks for reading and attending here.
Regards, LiquidAtoR.

 

[gdoubleok]

/agree

I agree with everything you've said liquid. I've been around for most major bots, this includes glider, pirox, ai, etc. Of course the bot that i fell in love with was Glider since it was SO universal and customizable. I see alot of similarities in GB/HB as i saw in glider and i am actually really liking it. Although the community on HB/GB is still small from what i have seen it has been really helpful.
I don't know if this suggestion will be of any use but.. If anyone botted or used Glider when it was big, i would suggest running something like that. The support they had on Glider from the DEV'S was superb, although i doubt bossland can really do that (Not saying he isn't trying his best), other mods can step up and take that roll and help be the middle man to deliver messages and things that need responding to.

ALL BOTS REQUIRE a community that cares and helps otherwise it will fail. Without proper MOD'S/DEV help this will never be achieved. I think as the DEV of GB you should make updates to CC's and notify all CC/Profile makers of any and all updates prior to it happening so they can get on the ball and fix things prior to release of a new version. This keeps from floods of "ZOMG MY BOT IS FAILING" threads.

Just my 2cents though i don't know if that made sense. either way yeah..

 

[beefcake]

I agree with the word COMMUNICATION being what I would like to see more of with all of the changes that are going on.

I dont know how to write CC's, I dont know how to make a profile, I only know how to use HB and GB. What I do know is that both of these are hard to use given that all of the public profiles are having a hard time keeping up with the changes that are announced after the fact. I am happy with what I paid for both of these and would gladly pay again. I am happy with what I get from these programs, BUT since I have no understanding of how to FIX a cc or profile after a change, I am left frustrated and unhappy till someone fixes a public profile that I need.

And to the above poster... I really like the IDEA of having a group named as CC/Profile Creators and having them be notified of upcoming changes in advance so that they can make changes and post them. I also like the idea of HB and GB being prereleased to these same people so they can TEST the changes they made in the CC and profile to make sure they all work before official release.

 

[Forb1d]

Liquidator, I skimmed your first post. It seems you are upset about the fact that they don't reply to each and every post that someone makes about suggestions. You do know that alot of the things that people suggest just simply arn't possible, or are just not practical to implement into the bots core because not all users might want it? For things like this, a user created plugin generally will do the trick (as shown by Apoc's targeting override, you can do almost anything with the plugin system).

As for "the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing"... what the hell are you talking about? Yes, I understand the expression, but seriously... what the hell are you referring to? lol

"Sitting around a virtual table" will not make anything go "smoother" as you say. As hawker has pointed out in one of his replies, programming something as advanced with this is alot of trial and error, which is often ridden with a mass amount of bugs. As is often stated, "No program is without its bugs." You saw how they tried one way for questing and it didn't work out as well as it could. They then changed that way around, and added in the "Only do these quests" type option. When that was found to not work optimally, they then added in the "Do these quests in this order" option. I really don't know what else you are wanting them to do.

 

[jumpclone]

Personally im very happy with honorbuddy, i paid for this around a week ago, just as it was updated and hardly any profiles worked hehe, but im starting to see profile creation happening over the days, i have tested a few and i must say, awsome bot, i only use it on the questing setting, and it does a damn good job on it too, questing is in beta i know, but what u have achieved so far is excellent, and i only see it getting better and better in the future, good job team, now im just waiting for some profiles to be updated or remade, i had a go at making profile myself, but basically i was like, wtf am i doing, even with tutorials, and it all laid out in front of me, it still all baffles my head lol, the build in cc's that come with honorbuddy are also excellent, haven't even bothered changing to another so far. anyway enough waffling, i'll say it again, good job all the team, looking forward to seeing the questing sorted in the future

 

[LiquidAtoR]

Just came in to get some files I was missing, and noticed a few replies, so I consolidated it here.

/agree
snap...

It made sense, thanks for the reply.

I agree with the word COMMUNICATION being what I would like to see more of with all of the changes that are going on.
snap...

That's why I (and others behind me) started this discussion in the fist place.

Liquidator, I skimmed your first post. It seems you are upset about the fact that they don't reply to each and every post that someone makes about suggestions. You do know that alot of the things that people suggest just simply arn't possible, or are just not practical to implement into the bots core because not all users might want it? For things like this, a user created plugin generally will do the trick (as shown by Apoc's targeting override, you can do almost anything with the plugin system).

You obviously missed the whole point in the story and have no idea what's going on here on the forums. I would like to suggest to read it all (instead of just skimming it). As a regular forum reader and poster we have different experiences, and that's why we are adressing them here.
If you didn't experience these things, well good for you I guess.

As for "the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing"... what the hell are you talking about? Yes, I understand the expression, but seriously... what the hell are you referring to? lol

If you don't know what I'm referring to here, then it's not of your concern I think. Again it's issues I don't care to elaborate on. Those concerned know what it's about and that it's a valid point.

"Sitting around a virtual table" will not make anything go "smoother" as you say. As hawker has pointed out in one of his replies, programming something as advanced with this is alot of trial and error, which is often ridden with a mass amount of bugs. As is often stated, "No program is without its bugs." You saw how they tried one way for questing and it didn't work out as well as it could. They then changed that way around, and added in the "Only do these quests" type option. When that was found to not work optimally, they then added in the "Do these quests in this order" option. I really don't know what else you are wanting them to do.

And a meeting amongst staffmembers to get everybody pointing in the right direction is a necessity for each group that lives all over the world but works together.
As said I had a community to lead of over 100.000 members, so I know the "ballgame" in a figure of speech. We had these meetings on a weekly basis, and there was always some or other things to discuss. Without it we would not have had the solid team and site we had at the time.

Personally im very happy with honorbuddy, i paid for this around a week ago, just as it was updated and hardly any profiles worked hehe, but im starting to see profile creation happening over the days, i have tested a few and i must say, awsome bot, i only use it on the questing setting, and it does a damn good job on it too, questing is in beta i know, but what u have achieved so far is excellent, and i only see it getting better and better in the future, good job team, now im just waiting for some profiles to be updated or remade, i had a go at making profile myself, but basically i was like, wtf am i doing, even with tutorials, and it all laid out in front of me, it still all baffles my head lol, the build in cc's that come with honorbuddy are also excellent, haven't even bothered changing to another so far. anyway enough waffling, i'll say it again, good job all the team, looking forward to seeing the questing sorted in the future

I'm sure the development team is glad to hear your positive experience with HB.
And I hope it stays that way

 

[peakaboo]

Maybe this is a rant because the CC with latest release doesn't seem to be working.

But really if you want people and the mods to take you serious, don't make statements like .

"
As I see it the staff is a whole bunch of mini dictators, under the rule of the big boss. And each is doing things their way, makes up the rules as they go, as it suits them. "

Is hardly going to endear them to you, or your cause.

Its also a contradiction, one minute there all a bunch of dictators all under the rule of the big boss, then they do what the hell they like, Doesn't sound like being ruled by a big bad dictator.

Perhaps in that statement , there is some truth such as "each doing things in there own way", sure maybe its a little un organized on there end.

But i don't see any of this dictatorship.

Sure HB is far from perfect, but i find for my small botting needs its perfect, and for the price i paid for HB it saves me much time and keeps me playing a game i would of stopped playing if i couldn't cheat.

Found a bug today In STV it wont pick up the Booty bay fly path because its so damn complicated, my bot could of been stuck for hours with people going omg look a BOT, but i don't give a shit, i don't have to spend hours grinding things i have done before, or wasting my real life, i learn from it, and not whine.
If i was gonna whine i would at least, try not to add any insults either.

 

[_Hausi]

Thanks liquid. I can find myself in many of your sentences! Ill add some own impressions tomorrow. My bed?s calling again xD

/wave