[PAID] Sushi - Balls Deep (Rogue)

[Stormchasing]

Hello, this is the latest in the combat log.
Attack any target will only ordinary attack does not release any skill.

i can see it, but i have currently no explanation for this (checking it right now)
can u please set Enable Speech to false?
You can find it under Routine Settings.
U need to restart HB after changing this setting

i'll try to find a workaround for the Speech issue, but this one shouldn't be the reason why it won't work for you.

This CC is not only a copy of the work?

what do you mean with this?

 

[JennyR]

1. u started stealthed? doesn't looks like u did it
2. will look at it, maybe the conditions for the pooling are to strong
3a. vanish is used when: combat started more than 10 seconds ago (to prevent a misusing), energy is below 76 and above 44, no SD up, no Mastery of Sub up and no Find weakness up (no other conditions)
do u have more specific informations on how it should be used (earlier is not very specific )
3b. will look at the ambush
4. need a screen of the error popup, since it is nothing in the log

1. I started in stealth, behind the dummy and start routine/combat with targeting dummy (left click, not right click). Using enyo with combat mode enable while testing. (for keeping the routine in combat after vanish)
3a. it should used it when find weakness running out and should pool before
so it should perform something like this:
SnD->Premeditation->Garrote->Ambush->Rupture->
right before find weakness runnig out pool for dance and then when dance is over and find weakness is running out pool for Vanish->Garrote->Ambush
This is just on the fly out of my head, Raid is starting now

4. Will make a screen later

 

[Stormchasing]

1. I started in stealth, behind the dummy and start routine/combat with targeting dummy (left click, not right click). Using enyo with combat mode enable while testing. (for keeping the routine in combat after vanish)
3a. it should used it when find weakness running out and should pool before
so it should perform something like this:
SnD->Premeditation->Garrote->Ambush->Rupture->
right before find weakness runnig out pool for dance and then when dance is over and find weakness is running out pool for Vanish->Garrote->Ambush
This is just on the fly out of my head, Raid is starting now

4. Will make a screen later

alright, the subterfuge / ambush shouldn't be an issue from the routine itself, it is wow in this case (tage a look at your subterfuge aura), the aura is up on you some time AFTER u broke the stealth for wathever reasons (encountered that issue some days ago, i can't even play around with events and timers since aura fades event (from stealth) is fired AFTER subterfuge aura fades ... so at least 4 seconds later than expected)

but will test another approach with this (seems to work from my current tests)

u can get me on skype, an we could have a talk in our native language

so i already could fix the Ambush opener with subterfuge, can't do anything for shadow focus opener, since stealth is broken instantly and ambush not ready (no stealth), but in normal raiding u will start with ambush on your own.
Ambush is now highest priority after vanish (works for subterfuge and shadow focus)

 

[Chaser]

energy is below 76 and above 44

Why? What if energy is above 76.. any troubles for Vanishing?
what are you going to do between 45 and 59 energy? Ambush costs 60.. Just sit awhile in Vanish waiting for regen or while routine uses Backstab or start autoattack to break stealth? Poor non-Shadow Focus users.

3a. vanish is used when: combat started more than 10 seconds ago (to prevent a misusing), energy is below 76 and above 44, no SD up, no Mastery of Sub up and no Find weakness up (no other conditions)
do u have more specific informations on how it should be used (earlier is not very specific )
3b. will look at the ambush

Conditions for Vanish are just the same as for Dance. The same pooling system, preparation phase for SnD and Rupture (if you have it).
Since user can move to stay on boss during fight my advice: wait for GCD end (while pooling?), then wait for melee range → /stopattack by HB + Vanish + Ambush spam at the same time. Manual raiders do it like this by macro.
1) do not perform all the routine's workflow again. The same method should do all the actions: /stopattack + Vanish + Ambush spam.
2) HB can spam ability ignoring anything Even if skill isn't learned So you need to wait for energy pooled, GCD ready, melee range , and perform /stopattack + Vanish + Ambush spam (e.g. with 30-50 ms interval until casted or stealth faded) → do routine's workflow to find next spell to cast.

One well known developer even uses dynamic framelock increase for opener (pvp Cheap Shot and Garrote spam) — helps a lot. If it's too complicated or you don't want to use for another reason just spam for some valuable time: 250-400 ms

For Shadowmeld (NE racial) use the same logic. Movement can break it and you cannot stealth after Shadowmeld during boss fight. So conditions even more strict: routine must wait for GCD ready and for sure be in melee range. Then fire /stopattack by HB + Shadowmeld + Ambush spam as a single action. Manually works even when moving.
Not sure if HB can detect are range requirements met or not. Some bosses have large hitbox (collision) and range may be >5 yards while it's still counted as melee. WoW game client always shows if range is met for skills on hotbar

Garrote

Garrote in PvE oO. Oh no. Make me unsee it.

 

[Stormchasing]

Why? What if energy is above 76.. any troubles for Vanishing?
what are you going to do between 45 and 59 energy? Ambush costs 60.. Just sit awhile in Vanish waiting for regen or while routine uses Backstab or start autoattack to break stealth? Poor non-Shadow Focus users.

Why would u use it above 76? a waste of energy and Vanish
With Vanish activated u will enter the Energy phase instantly which gives more or less 25 energy within less than 300ms, which means we can use Ambush right after Vanish without any issues, and without having shadow focus talented

Conditions for Vanish are just the same as for Dance. The same pooling system, preparation phase for SnD and Rupture (if you have it).
Since user can move to stay on boss during fight my advice: wait for GCD end (while pooling?), then wait for melee range → /stopattack by HB + Vanish + Ambush spam at the same time. Manual raiders do it like this by macro.

there is no end of a gcd while pooling, since u don't use anything at this moment.
Routines spams ambush right after vanish (of course only when in melee range, multiple times tested (at least today in longer lasting fights (5 mins and more)), so this won't be changed, it works like it should.

1) do not perform all the routine's workflow again. The same method should do all the actions: /stopattack + Vanish + Ambush spam.

see above

2) HB can spam ability ignoring anything Even if skill isn't learned So you need to wait for energy pooled, GCD ready, melee range , and perform /stopattack + Vanish + Ambush spam (e.g. with 30-50 ms interval until casted or stealth faded) → do routine's workflow to find next spell to cast.

see above

One well known developer even uses dynamic framelock increase for opener (pvp Cheap Shot and Garrote spam) — helps a lot. If it's too complicated or you don't want to use for another reason just spam for some valuable time: 250-400 ms

unknown for me, and i see it currently in absolutely in no relation

For Shadowmeld (NE racial) use the same logic. Movement can break it and you cannot stealth after Shadowmeld during boss fight. So conditions even more strict: routine must wait for GCD ready and for sure be in melee range. Then fire /stopattack by HB + Shadowmeld + Ambush spam as a single action. Manually works even when moving.

For anyone playing a Night Elf, Shadow Meld can be used to get an extra Ambush, but simulations show it is actually a DPS loss to do this.

Not sure if HB can detect are range requirements met or not. Some bosses have large hitbox (collision) and range may be >5 yards while it's still counted as melee. WoW game client always shows if range is met for skills on hotbar

yes we can properly detect range requirements (was changed some weeks back, since we had by accident used it wrong)

Garrote in PvE oO. Oh no. Make me unsee it.

well garrote is in the rotation, but i've never seen it being used (cause ambush, hemorrhage and backstab have a lot higher priority, and the energy management we have currently should prevent it from beeing used, so im fine with garrot)


before i'll change the whole rotation again (subtlety was reworked one week ago in 3 days talking to and testing with mythic raiders, and i won't throw away the whole work) i always look at ravenholdt.net, simulationcraft.org and some other sites, so even though i'm not a pro rogue player, i think i've a good theory (pve wise)

 

[Chaser]

Routines spams ambush right after vanish (of course only when in melee range, multiple times tested (at least today in longer lasting fights (5 mins and more)), so this won't be changed, it works like it should.

in real fight with a lot of movement, not a dummy?

unknown for me, and i see it currently in absolutely in no relation

vitalic (ownedcore) — PvP rogue developer. The only reason for me to stay in this thread — I hope you'll become "a vitalic for PvE"

For anyone playing a Night Elf, Shadow Meld can be used to get an extra Ambush, but simulations show it is actually a DPS loss to do this.

Is it implemented already in this routine? Halt autoattack? Premeditation + Ambush? Correct energy pooling before melding?
Shadowmeld has higher or lower priority vs Vanish? Maybe even dynamic choice? (in most cases first 20-30 seconds of fight have less movement = better for Shadowmeld.).

Why would u use it above 76? a waste of energy and Vanish
With Vanish activated u will enter the Energy phase instantly which gives more or less 25 energy within less than 300ms, which means we can use Ambush right after Vanish without any issues, and without having shadow focus talented

Sorry, I play with glyph of Energy both PvP and PvE so always keep in mind that basic energy pool is 120 for Sub
Had a couple of times no extra regen Hope in WoD increased server respond time fixed it forever

Thanks for your patience and answers

 

[Stormchasing]

in real fight with a lot of movement, not a dummy?

sure

vitalic (ownedcore) — PvP rogue developer. The only reason for me to stay in this thread — I hope you'll become "a vitalic for PvE"

never heard, but ... yeah ... means nothing i'm sure he hasn't ever heard of me

Is it implemented already in this routine? Halt autoattack? Premeditation + Ambush? Correct energy pooling before melding?
Shadowmeld has higher or lower priority vs Vanish? Maybe even dynamic choice? (in most cases first 20-30 seconds of fight have less movement = better for Shadowmeld.).

the halt is atm not in there, and ... now after a lil bit of talking with two other rogues, that are explaining me the sense and nonsense of some attacks and styles and cooldowns so that i get a better understanding ... no the prem is wrong placed atm^^
but i'll get deeper into this on friday (raid tomorrow), maybe i can fix the prem right before the raidstart, but shadowmeld has to wait until friday

Sorry, I play with glyph of Energy both PvP and PvE so always keep in mind that basic energy pool is 120 for Sub

maybe we have encountered an issue with the energy pooling ... which tends to cap the energy sometimes, even if i can't reproduce it with my rogue (but this has nothing to say, since my rogue isn't well enough geared)
so i've on my list currently

- tweak vanish usage (rework the logic and put it higher in priority)
- think about and rework the premedation usage (from my current understanding it should always paired with vanish?)
- rework the pooling for shadow dance, since it also tends to cap energy atm

 

[Chaser]

- think about and rework the premedation usage (from my current understanding it should always paired with vanish?)

On cooldown with any stealth or "allowed to use stealth abilities"
Is off GCD so can be used right before any ability following by Dance, Vanish, Shadowmeld. Or like "right after Dance, Vanish, Shadowmeld" But also need to check Premed's cooldown during Dance. Sometimes in a middle of fight Premed will become ready while already dancing, not before it because being used on previous Vanish/Meld. So don't miss if become ready while Dancing.

 

[Stormchasing]

On cooldown with any stealth or "allowed to use stealth abilities"
Is off GCD so can be used right before any ability following by Dance, Vanish, Shadowmeld. Or like "right after Dance, Vanish, Shadowmeld" But also need to check Premed's cooldown during Dance. Sometimes in a middle of fight Premed will become ready while already dancing, not before it because being used on previous Vanish/Meld. So don't miss if become ready while Dancing.

no problem, already in there ( in current test version)

 

[JennyR]

Garrote in PvE oO. Oh no. Make me unsee it.

Ur comment ist totally ***, arrogant "PvP-Pro". U probally rerolled ur class or u are raiding since yesterday.

@Stormchasing
Here is the Error-Popup u requested:

After that error, i cant change setting with the dropdown menu anymore. Up/Down Arrow-Key works for changing. The error comes after starting HB and then trying to change settings.

 

[Chaser]

Tested subtlety in .36 And i'm disappointed

No Shadow Reflection at all (idk how it passed your tests..).

No Premeditation at all. (if you'll add it please do not forget combo < 4 check or it will be wasted)

No Rupture clipping at all, rotation allows Rupture to be dropped.. Then refreshes it with any combo + another any combo. Yes, twice in a row (= dps loss per energy).

No Dance on opener. oO

You already know about hardcoded energy pooling before dance: current energy and regen speed are ignored -- rotation just stops for 5 seconds before Dance become ready It's crazy logic. Leads to:
1) no Rupture for 5+ seconds of dance because it was dropped during 5 sec halt before dance (= multistrike for your rotation is useless stat).
2) may have no SnD at Dance start.
2) double Rupture cast and SnD refresh during Dance instead of Ambush-Evis.

I'm impressed Maybe you'll better remove any pooling attempt at all? Just click Dance on CD. Blocking rotation isn't a good idea and can't be called "burst preparation" because it leads to burst fail.
For now Dance is a dps loss with your rotation

View attachment 7888 2015-01-10 00.56.txt

So for two weeks I'm trying to see basic (not mastered) rotation for Subtlety in your routine. But it still doesn't work even for training dummy while you state "The best possible DPS output! and Optimized for Warlords of Draenor". Can be runned doesn't mean "optimized" and not even close to "best possible"

 

[sweandypandy]

om do so fucking awse dps with this in sub but no aoe dmg?

 

[Stormchasing]

Tested subtlety in .36 And i'm disappointed
No Shadow Reflection at all (idk how it passed your tests..).
No Premeditation at all. (if you'll add it please do not forget combo < 4 check or it will be wasted)
No Rupture clipping at all, rotation allows Rupture to be dropped.. Then refreshes it with any combo + another any combo. Yes, twice in a row (= dps loss per energy).
No Dance on opener. oO

i can't replicate your issue, i see your log, and i know you are right, but i have currently no explanation for this
for me and currently 4 testers, to which i'm talking every day, it works just fine.
Rupture is clipped when needed
Premeditation is used
Opener works just fine (depending on your current talents the opener differs slightly Mark of Death + SnD, prem, ambush spam ... or Prem -> SnD -> ambush spam)
Shadow Dance (the only thing that seems to work for you), is line up with Shadow Reflection, while SR is up, it spams as much Ambush as possible

You already know about hardcoded energy pooling before dance: current energy and regen speed are ignored -- rotation just stops for 5 seconds before Dance become ready

also wrong, the time for pooling is calculated including the energy regen ration
so i currently don't know why da hell it pools for 10 seconds for you

but well ... i also can't see any reason atm why it won't use SR ...

It's crazy logic. Leads to:
1) no Rupture for 5+ seconds of dance because it was dropped during 5 sec halt before dance (= multistrike for your rotation is useless stat).
2) may have no SnD at Dance start.
2) double Rupture cast and SnD refresh during Dance instead of Ambush-Evis.

the double rupture could be an issue because we have currently no solution (well we have, but we haven't implemented it currently) for preventing to cast a spell twice in a row

I'm impressed Maybe you'll better remove any pooling attempt at all? Just click Dance on CD. Blocking rotation isn't a good idea and can't be called "burst preparation" because it leads to burst fail.
For now Dance is a dps loss with your rotation

i don't mind removing something that works for most users

So for two weeks I'm trying to see basic (not mastered) rotation for Subtlety in your routine. But it still doesn't work even for training dummy while you state "The best possible DPS output! and Optimized for Warlords of Draenor". Can be runned doesn't mean "optimized" and not even close to "best possible"

do u mind joining the beta group? if so, shot me a pm with further instructions

i can push updates to beta version much faster

here u can see changes which where made within one hour while talking to the testers

v1.0.1.37 b	Beta	SnD fix Prem fix MoD fix	1/8/2015 12:01:59 AM
v1.0.1.37 a	Beta	shouldn't mix up SnD Prem and MoD	1/7/2015 11:54:41 PM
v1.0.1.37	Beta	- prem tweaked is now used in stealth for comoboints when ready - prem tweaked is now used at 3 or less combopoints instead of 4 or less - snd for vanish tweaked - ambush tweaked	1/7/2015 11:15:14 P

basicly i would need you in a skype chat or so, to have a live contact, where i can push updates to beta group while chatting with you, to see if a change works for you

what i currently have on my to do list:
- extend the openers for subtlety (they are currently written while talking to testers, so a bit messy)
- add an opener hotkey,so that this will be executed first, before doin the default combat rotation
- rework the pooling to a more stable version (already written down on paper but not yet implemented)
- add new conditions to vanish, it is not the best way how it is currently used (it is okay, but not perfect)
- rework some conditions which are currently fixed at the wrong energy cap (related to Venom Rush)
- add another logging which gives us more details about the targets status and our own situation, the current logging is not usable for examing issues (did it already for another routine, so it is implemented within 10 minutes)

 

[Stormchasing]

om do so fucking awse dps with this in sub but no aoe dmg?

why not enabling aoe?
or attach a log.
AoE is bound to a hotkey as far as i know

 

[sweandypandy]

no its no aoe option

 

[Stormchasing]

no its no aoe option

Then it must detect aoe automaticly

 

[JennyR]

With Alt+E (by default) u activate the AOE rotation.
With Alt+F1 (by default) u activate Automation-Mode, which should detect AoE situation by it self.

 

[spessien]

so today I tried this CR with my Bloodelf Rogue iLvl 650. I did with this CR 12k dps on the Dummys in Ashran I put the Cooldowns to true but I think the dps is a little bit low. SimCraft shows me 17,5 dps and I turned all buffs off.I test both for 5 min.

 

[Stormchasing]

so today I tried this CR with my Bloodelf Rogue iLvl 650. I did with this CR 12k dps on the Dummys in Ashran I put the Cooldowns to true but I think the dps is a little bit low. SimCraft shows me 17,5 dps and I turned all buffs off.I test both for 5 min.

Working since 3 days on it.... And u think we are close to a new version for subtlety

Currently ( from what I remember from last night's chat) there are 3 real issues left
- on use trinkets wrong synced to cooldowns
- current pooling ignores shadow focus talent
- pooling sometimes overcapped energy

One two minor issues
- hath proccs (internal cd) not taken into account for some actions
- energy recovery from other sources than default energy recovery rate not yet checked, so pooling tales to long and caps energy

One feature request left
- hotkey for opener

The first two should be solved today, the opener should also be ready today

The other stuff( which is mainly fine tuning) should be ready at the weekend


Well long story short : will take look, working hard on it, new version should be up on Thursday with much better subtlety rotation.. ( depends on testers and feedback and my Raid today)

 

[Stormchasing]

getting closer to a new version
updated version on beta with more optimizations
- Honor Among Thieves is now tracked and recognized
- Trinkets and Racials are can now be synced with cooldowns, without breaking stealth
- some conditions for rotation added and tweaked
- support for shadow focus added
- Vanish and prep fixed
- anticipation fixed
- mark of death fixed
- hitbox detection for cleavefights with units with large hitboxes fixed

Current issues left (currently no feedback from testers since i informed them 3 minutes ago)
- there is still a bug with energy capping for at least 3 seconds in a 900 second fight
- a reported bug where SnD fails off should be fixed but haven't checked it yet, it happens every now and then ... (we have currently an uptime of 99,806%, so to find the issue is very hard atm)

current feature request left
- Opener hotkey