Developer Rules Update

[Croga]

Why should the unpaid hobby devs who already dedicate a lot of their free time to coding also keep the wiki updated? To me it seems you want to use the devs as a scapegoat for everything.

To me it seems you want to use the HB devs for everything and anything. Their time is limited. Would you rather they fix bugs and implement new features or would you rather they update the wiki? 'cause you can't have it all.

Why should the *hobby* devs not do whatever is necessary for them to do their *hobby*?

I'm not saying it's either-or. I am saying that if there's something bothering you and you have the power to make that bother go away, you shouldn't be complaining, you should be solving.

 

[wownerds]

To me it seems you want to use the HB devs for everything and anything. Their time is limited. Would you rather they fix bugs and implement new features or would you rather they update the wiki? 'cause you can't have it all.

Why should the *hobby* devs not do whatever is necessary for them to do their *hobby*?

I'm not saying it's either-or. I am saying that if there's something bothering you and you have the power to make that bother go away, you shouldn't be complaining, you should be solving.

You are certainly right, but you miss one crucial point - HB devs are paid, also by the hobby devs. So if they want to encourage the development of new, let's call them additions, they should provide a certain knowledge base, including a wiki or at least a proper API documentation. (Seriously, "f*cks your mother" is certainly not a helpful description for beginners...)

 

[wulf]

This thread should be closed. Its turned into a troll feeding frenzy.

 

[wownerds]

This thread should be closed. Its turned into a troll feeding frenzy.

Just because you disagree with others does not mean one should end a discussion. Having read every single post in this thread, I can say that many people bring up valid and reasonable arguments for and against the change, while the number of "troll posts" is virtually zero. From time to time, even constructive improvements are suggested.

 

[fpsware]

Just because you disagree with others does not mean one should end a discussion. Having read every single post in this thread, I can say that many people bring up valid and reasonable arguments for and against the change, while the number of "troll posts" is virtually zero. From time to time, even constructive improvements are suggested.

Agreed.

 

[Venus112]

Just because you disagree with others does not mean one should end a discussion. Having read every single post in this thread, I can say that many people bring up valid and reasonable arguments for and against the change, while the number of "troll posts" is virtually zero. From time to time, even constructive improvements are suggested.

Agreed, though what is confusing me is that the people mostly supporting this change, is people who hasn't developed anything and that's fine an all, but then again; does this really concern you that much then? If you're wanting to make something, then good. They already stated they wont change their mind, but that doesn't disallow us from posting how we feel about this

I've recieved posts in private supporting decisions to close down projects but then i've also been called quite a few things by people in this thread, due to the fact that apparently i'm selfish in protesting against changes without any warnings and the HB staff not seeming to care (personal oppinion, i can't say for sure that they do not care) about the people who feel this was not justified.
I'm guessing, that no matter how many people protest against this, they'll keep it - as not to lose face to their customers.
I'm still confused as to how people can state nobody will take your work, as i've already said: I've recieved PMs from people wanting to post their own version of one of our LazyRaider codes or post their own versions in our threads (had them take them down again, as this provide false unsupported versions of a CC) and the changes was so minimal that posting a version was clutter. If people would've just posted a snip of the code in the correct CC thread, i'd have taken a look at it (i've already done this before). We're talking 8+ the time i've been on the LazyRaider project and mind you - that hasn't been that long. Shaddar had several people doing the same before i came too.

 

[Croga]

You are certainly right, but you miss one crucial point - HB devs are paid, also by the hobby devs. So if they want to encourage the development of new, let's call them additions, they should provide a certain knowledge base, including a wiki or at least a proper API documentation. (Seriously, "f*cks your mother" is certainly not a helpful description for beginners...)

Hmm.... valid point... I still think we (as in: the non-core community) can take part of the responsibility but we do need serious (more serious than now) involvement of the core devs.
Maybe this could be a project for those that aren't developing main CCs to check out the WIKI/documentation and put directed questions before the core devs?

Just because you disagree with others does not mean one should end a discussion. Having read every single post in this thread, I can say that many people bring up valid and reasonable arguments for and against the change, while the number of "troll posts" is virtually zero. From time to time, even constructive improvements are suggested.

We may not see eye to eye on the decission but we definitely agree here.
I may not agree with your point of view but I will do anything necessary to defend your right to post it.

 

[wulf]

Just because you disagree with others does not mean one should end a discussion. Having read every single post in this thread, I can say that many people bring up valid and reasonable arguments for and against the change, while the number of "troll posts" is virtually zero. From time to time, even constructive improvements are suggested.

Let me rephrase. This thread should be closed as;-
A) Whats done is done.
B) Bashing HB staff for not having API documentation is not going to change the rule.

 

[wownerds]

Hmm.... valid point... I still think we (as in: the non-core community) can take part of the responsibility but we do need serious (more serious than now) involvement of the core devs.
Maybe this could be a project for those that aren't developing main CCs to check out the WIKI/documentation and put directed questions before the core devs?

We may not see eye to eye on the decission but we definitely agree here.
I may not agree with your point of view but I will do anything necessary to defend your right to post it.

Tank you for this very reasonable post. It's posts like these which keep the discussion fruitful.

 

[wownerds]

B) Bashing HB staff for not having API documentation is not going to change the rule.

I wouldn't call constructive criticism "bashing".

 

[fpsware]

We may not see eye to eye on the decission but we definitely agree here. I may not agree with your point of view but I will do anything necessary to defend your right to post it.

Tank you for this very reasonable post. It's posts like these which keep the discussion fruitful.

At least we have some people in this community that respect the rights of everyone to offer their opinion regardless of their side taken. Its infinitely more constructive and conducive to a healthy community than those naysayers who simply say 'close the thread already'.

 

[wulf]

At least we have some people in this community that respect the rights of everyone to offer their opinion regardless of their side taken. Its infinitely more constructive and conducive to a health community than those naysayers who simply say 'close the thread already'.

If you feel that the current discussion is "constructive and conducive to a health community" then by all means continue, I on the other hand intend to spend my time contributing to the community with actual coding instead of whining about the rules and the lack of API documentation. The HB staff have already stated they are not going to change their mind.

 

[LiquidAtoR]

My 2 cents

I've read the whole thread and think these new rules rattle and do the volunteer developers no justice.
HB is just HB, and without those volunteers it would not be what it is today.

It came a long way from the start of HB, but it came that long way hand in hand with the volunteers who's rights on protecting their work has been diminished over time.
First it was the forbidden .dll CC's (while they are still used by so called 'official' devs to protect their work).
You might as well open up HB and it's branches as opensource since there's alot of room for improvement as well.

You talk about everone can develop on someone else's work, then make everything available and not just what's convenient to you (and that's what seems to happen).
You are more busy with aswering PM's instead of developing you write, well, I have news, you're doing something wrong.
For that you SHOULD have staff.
I've already said it before (when we had another uprise a long time ago), coders should code, staff should maintain forums, delegate and train em.

The HB coders thinned due to spread over too many projects at the same time (greed?) and letting the older projects slip a bit.
Yes, there are more updates as of late, but still there was a long period where the HB users were just ignored.
You just temporarily changed priorities to give the kids their candy so they shut up for some time.

I've moved away more and more from HB as of the last few months (starting to really enjoy PQR now that levelling CC's appear and you can do so much more with it), only use HB for ShamWoW and Handnavi's CC.
Just because it seems that you try to kill any REAL creativity here by implementing these rules.

Either way I hope the results are what you (as HB staff) expect from them, I guess time will prove itself the next months.
And I hope for myself that wherever those CC/BotBase and plugin developers are moving to that don't agree with this, will let me know in a PM (either here, ownedcore or other sites where we all are active) if they plan to gather themselves in a new home (and where that might be located on the www).

Thanks for your time, good luck and godspeed, Liquid.

 

[fpsware]

If you feel that the current discussion is "constructive and conducive to a health community" then by all means continue, I on the other hand intend to spend my time contributing to the community with actual coding instead of whining about the rules and the lack of API documentation. The HB staff have already stated they are not going to change their mind.

Interesting, maybe you should review your definition of whining. You've made more posts in this thread than me and you've done nothing but force your negative attitude upon those that care to partake in a constructive discussion about the issue at hand.

Good luck with your coding.

 

[Inrego]

Soo.. After all this drama, it seems like I should get more into CC developing and start releasing them :>

 

[MadDog]

You could start by not selling your profiles outside of the HB forums.

 

[Inrego]

You could start by not selling your profiles outside of the HB forums.

And why's that? It's allowed to sell them outside this forum. I make alot of stuff. And some stuff I decide to release here, and some stuff I don't. I spent 100+ hours on those mining and herbalism profiles so that's why I decided to sell them.
Either way, I don't see how that's in any way related to making CC's if I said I'm going to release them?

 

[kasia]

I will grab all whiners CC`s who take down them and release in one pack so dont worry users.

 

[Inrego]

I will grab all whiners CC`s who take down them and release in one pack so dont worry users.

If you do - I will hate you. And I even like the new rule change. But there's no reason to be disrespectful to the developers who disagree.

And on that subject. I agree with all the point hawker puts that it's actually better for the community etc, but since so many developers actually made such a big deal out of it I'm not sure it applies here. I do think that when so many developers disagree, a compromise should be worked out. Although I do like it the way it is now

 

[gimp8gimp]

I will grab all whiners CC`s who take down them and release in one pack so dont worry users.

You summoned it up in one sentence why cc coders are against this new rule