Developer Rules Update

[CodenameG]

I am not a developer but I would hate to have some of the CC developers leave the forums because of something like this. I think a good option would be to allow active developers release cc's as a dll so their active work won't be taken without permission. I feel this would allow people to actively develop their own work. Also after (x) months/days of no response from the developer the CC could be released to the community to continue as they wish. Just my 2 cents, and I'm not even sure if it is possible.

Saif

we cannot allow closed source releases (releases as dll's). because if a developer decided to go rouge and put in a key logger or do something else malicious, there's no way for anyone to look at the code, and there's even less of a chance that it would be caught right away. from what ive been told, it is illegal to distribute malicious code (or something to that extent) and bossland and the company would be in trouble. thats one of the reasons we dont allow it.

 

[zeldrak]

I am not a developer but I would hate to have some of the CC developers leave the forums because of something like this. I think a good option would be to allow active developers release cc's as a dll so their active work won't be taken without permission. I feel this would allow people to actively develop their own work. Also after (x) months/days of no response from the developer the CC could be released to the community to continue as they wish. Just my 2 cents, and I'm not even sure if it is possible.

Saif

The .dll suggestion was brought up, and even used once, a while back. I don't think it went over very well with everyone.

I'm not a coder or developer, and I've used a lot of things on these forums, which I've edited on a very, very minute level, and I use them personally. I have not, nor will I ever, upload anything that I have edited to these forums because I believe that the creator of the product should maintain full control over their work.

If I were a creator of something, and someone were to take it and modify it in even the smallest way, and then upload it without my sole permission, then you can bet your backside I would be highly ticked off, especially if they made it their "own" work. Credit? Um, no, thanks. If I don't give you my permission to edit and upload, then you can give me all the credit in the world and it won't fix anything. It's the same thing as theft. You wouldn't forgive someone that stole your car and modified it to call their own, would you? Even if the thieves gave you all the "credit" of picking out and buying the car. In a roundabout sort of way, it's the same thing. No permission is stealing, no matter how you look at it.

Now, on the other hand, if you've made several attempts at contacting the original creator/author of said project, and they never respond to you, you should then contact the admin staff and ask their permission and explain to them that you have attempted several times to get permission but the original author/creator seems to be MIA. At that point it should rest on the admins' shoulders to give permission to take over the project and modify it, with credit to the original author/creator, and emphasize that you have done nothing but edit/update/modify the original project to work properly. You should never take over someone else's project and then rename it to call it your own.

Just my point of view of the whole issue. Ganking someone else's code is just like stealing their car.

 

[greaterdeath]

Just my point of view of the whole issue. Ganking someone else's code is just like stealing their car.

What if I want to take one of kick's questing profiles and try make it raf friendly? Sure I modified it to suit a niche, but he still coded the whole thing. Without this change I would have to write from scratch 1-85 questing profiles if I ever wanted to share it; I could never do all that in a million years.

 

[zeldrak]

What if I want to take one of kick's questing profiles and try make it raf friendly? Sure I modified it to suit a niche, but he still coded the whole thing. Without this change I would have to write from scratch 1-85 questing profiles if I ever wanted to share it; I could never do all that in a million years.

I may not have been very clear. Modifying for personal use is fine. I haven't seen a single author get upset about someone taking their project and customizing it for personal use. It's the ones that take the whole project, modify it without permission, then upload it for everyone else to use as their own. As long as you get permission from the author, or admin once the author vacates the project, then it should be fine.

 

[fpsware]

I may not have been very clear. Modifying for personal use is fine. I haven't seen a single author get upset about someone taking their project and customizing it for personal use. It's the ones that take the whole project, modify it without permission, then upload it for everyone else to use as their own. As long as you get permission from the author, or admin once the author vacates the project, then it should be fine.

This comment mirrors my sentiments exactly.

 

[zeldrak]

This comment mirrors my sentiments exactly.

I don't do what you, and some of the others here, do. I can't code for squat. But, I know how you feel because I've had people take my artistic creations, rip the color from them and use their own color scheme with small artistic changes here and there, and call them their own. Pisses me off because I did 95% of the work, and they just recolored it and changed some lines, or angles. I feel like I should be getting royalties or something since my project was used as a base, or the bulk, of their project.

 

[wulf]

Well I do not know where i fall into this mix...a code thief or someone who has re-used code and built upon it to strengthen the developing community.

For those that don't know I am the current developer of http://www.thebuddyforum.com/honorb...-one/45356-clu-codified-likeness-utility.html.

I absolutely love the work cowdude did with felmaster and began actively creating rotations for it until cowdude took a leave of absence. I then found myself being the only one responding and helping members with the rotations that were created within the felmaster forum post - and some members even implied I was the original author - this eventually felt awkward.

After quite a while waiting for cowdudes return...I branched out - created a new VS project - and re-used some of cowdudes core - exchanging 99% of the LUA calls with the Honourbuddy API, documenting everything as I went and giving credit where needed. I then added my existing felmaster rotations as well as community contributed rotations (which i give full credit for).

At the moment there are a lot of members that are using CLU and enjoying its rotations with full support from myself. This is something I do not have to do.
I could simply keep CLU private - that way I wouldn't have to provide support - and use it for myself.
I have many hours invested in CLU, and a lot of wife rage

My perspective is, if a member was to copy CLU and rename it "Fantastico" and add value to it (with support) I wouldn't have an issue as the improvements they make can then be added back to CLU giving them credit (I think its called a Fork).

Not to mention the amount of code that singular has helped me with...

If indeed I am a code thief then I humbly apologise and will withdraw from the developing community leaving my projects intact.

Apologies for the wall of text.

Wulf

 

[Jon310]

This is just for C# code, what about for profiles code?

Get ready for Jon310's 1-85 Quest Pack! Available for download shortly.






jk, obviously.

 

[CodenameG]

Well I do not know where i fall into this mix...a code thief or someone who has re-used code and built upon it to strengthen the developing community.

For those that don't know I am the current developer of http://www.thebuddyforum.com/honorb...-one/45356-clu-codified-likeness-utility.html.

I absolutely love the work cowdude did with felmaster and began actively creating rotations for it until cowdude took a leave of absence. I then found myself being the only one responding and helping members with the rotations that were created within the felmaster forum post - and some members even implied I was the original author - this eventually felt awkward.

After quite a while waiting for cowdudes return...I branched out - created a new VS project - and re-used some of cowdudes core - exchanging 99% of the LUA calls with the Honourbuddy API, documenting everything as I went and giving credit where needed. I then added my existing felmaster rotations as well as community contributed rotations (which i give full credit for).

At the moment there are a lot of members that are using CLU and enjoying its rotations with full support from myself. This is something I do not have to do.
I could simply keep CLU private - that way I wouldn't have to provide support - and use it for myself.
I have many hours invested in CLU, and a lot of wife rage

My perspective is, if a member was to copy CLU and rename it "Fantastico" and add value to it (with support) I wouldn't have an issue as the improvements they make can then be added back to CLU giving them credit (I think its called a fork).

Not to mention the amount of code that singular has helped me with...

If indeed I am a code thief then I humbly apologise and will withdraw from the developing community leaving my projects intact.

Apologies for the wall of text.

Wulf

it wasnt just you, (not sure if you contributed at all) but about 5+ developers where recently having issues. its not just once incident.

 

[zeldrak]

Well I do not know where i fall into this mix...a code thief or someone who has re-used code and built upon it to strengthen the developing community.

For those that don't know I am the current developer of http://www.thebuddyforum.com/honorb...-one/45356-clu-codified-likeness-utility.html.

I absolutely love the work cowdude did with felmaster and began actively creating rotations for it until cowdude took a leave of absence. I then found myself being the only one responding and helping members with the rotations that were created within the felmaster forum post - and some members even implied I was the original author - this eventually felt awkward.

After quite a while waiting for cowdudes return...I branched out - created a new VS project - and re-used some of cowdudes core - exchanging 99% of the LUA calls with the Honourbuddy API, documenting everything as I went and giving credit where needed. I then added my existing felmaster rotations as well as community contributed rotations (which i give full credit for).

At the moment there are a lot of members that are using CLU and enjoying its rotations with full support from myself. This is something I do not have to do.
I could simply keep CLU private - that way I wouldn't have to provide support - and use it for myself.
I have many hours invested in CLU, and a lot of wife rage

My perspective is, if a member was to copy CLU and rename it "Fantastico" and add value to it (with support) I wouldn't have an issue as the improvements they make can then be added back to CLU giving them credit (I think its called a fork).

Not to mention the amount of code that singular has helped me with...

If indeed I am a code thief then I humbly apologise and will withdraw from the developing community leaving my projects intact.

Apologies for the wall of text.

Wulf

As far as I know, what you've done Wulf, hasn't offended any of the original authors. I suppose you sort of "inherited" permission to do what you did, and that works out too I suppose. I use CLU and like it very much. As CnG mentioned, it was 5 or so authors that are having grievances about code exchanges, be they acceptable or unacceptable. I know 4 of those 5, but I'm not going to mention any names. You could probably guess some, or all, of them by reading posts on the forums in some threads.

Anyway, I think you're in the clear to all charges of code theft, so I wouldn't worry too much about it.

 

[Obliv]

My stance: If you're posting on a community board you're here trying to help out. That knowledge should be part of the community once posted. If I spend time coding something to do something one way, and someone else sees that it has potential doing it another... I would not see the downside of them using my code to create their own project.

I spent a little time redoing the Ret Singular file and I put my name on it. I supported it and updated it by myself. I don't have the coding knowledge to completely rewrite Singular, but I did know how to change rotations. I took feedback and improved until I could no longer. I am more than happy some of that code made its way back to Singular. I gained nothing from spending time working on the CC edit. The whole point I did it was to help the community.

I realize we have a lot of talented devs here, but it seems like some have forgotten the whole point... helping the community. I just don't see the point of posting a project if the concern is going to be someone using it and improving upon it. Which, it's rare that someone takes a project that is still alive and works on it (by alive I mean 1) active user 2) updating project and 3) replying to feedback with project).

** That being said, if I got paid to do anything.. I would have a completely different attitude.

 

[Hawker]

Let me see if I understand this...

If I spend several weeks with countless late nights and every spare moment of my weekend developing a project; as soon as I release it anyone can come along and copy my entire project, change a few (or more) lines of code relabel it and call it whatever they want as long as they give the original developer credit?

Case in point, DayWalker this is my Warlock CC that has been taken without my permission and has been renamed and rebranded to appear as though it were from another developer. Previous to today the only acknowledgement of my work was a simple statement saying some parts of the code where by Fpsware. When in actual fact the entire project is by me and he has made some modifications.

So to surmise ... There is no longer a requirement for the original developer to grant permission to allow someone to use their code or entire project? As long as someone gives credit to the original developer they have carte blanche to do what they want with the code or the entire project?


EDIT: added case in point.

Its a fork. If he has given credit for your work, you have lost nothing and if adds good stuff, you have access to that stuff for your own supported version. Thats the way projects like Linux and BSD have grown and it will work for you too.

 

[Hawker]

Get ready for Jon310's 1-85 Quest Pack! Available for download shortly.
jk, obviously.

Go for it. If you don't support users who are confused and maintain the profiles, people will call you a prat. If you add stuff that kick missed, he can copy it into his profiles. There is no downside here.

 

[Dagradt]

We are helping the community... We ask & get asked for ideas, tweaks, new rotations, old ideas in new light, etc. with this the coders revise their work and release new improvements based off user wants and needs.

1) I see an issue with mass clutter as lots will take this idea in to new light.
2) I have no issue with people trying there hand at coding, go for it, but I feel a limitation must be made. Such as threads with no DL's within a certain amount of time should be auto archived.
3) If people are only using one line of code or have a tweak they would wish to be used, make a new thread area for snip-its (sort of a collection of random ideas and code).

I will ride this out as many of the other developers & I trust the Admins (Haven't lead us wrong yet), but I feel their must be a standard or order.

Edit: God damn there was one page when i started writing this... Sorry if this is repeditave... I need to read back now, lol

 

[toblakai]

Just have a seperate sub forum called "Modified CCs" or something. [...] Fanedits if you like.

This could work if everyone works towards it. There should be some naming scheme that clearly reference the original work, and moderators should move posted CC's into the Fanedits subfolder. Original CC developers should be free to include anything from fanedits back into the original CC. There will still be plenty of grey areas...

Personally I'd prefer an option for developers to create locked, paid-only versions of their CC's as I think money is a good incentive both for learning and working.

 

[Inrego]

I like this - this is the way I always thought it should be.

 

[weischbier]

You should definitely rethink this.
It would probably the best to make a "Code Snippet" section for everyone.
Where are no copyrights, no hijacking of code and no credit to give.
Code there released is open source and is usable by everyone at any time for any reason.
Simply one rule: Don't re post if you just modified an existing snippet. Post your edit to the respective thread and there and your good to go.
If you want a "community" you should not make the community able to grab stuff from others and change one line and re post it as perpetuum mobile.

What I'm saying is: We don't need to invent the wheel twice. We just need to produce a better tire with more grip on the street.

Just my two cents...


greetz

Weischbier

 

[wownerds]

Personally I'd prefer an option for developers to create locked, paid-only versions of their CC's as I think money is a good incentive both for learning and working.

As far as the forum rules go, this is possible as long as it happens outside of the official HB forums. The downside to this is that the Buddy team won't offer support for closed-source CCs/plugins which are not available on their own forum.

 

[Toney001]

I think wulf is the example of how I feel it should be.

He asks for permission for every line of code he borrows, and he didn't even start working on CLU until cowdude dissapeared.

I think there's a difference between using a line of code here and there abd just taking a whole project and re-releasing it (at least when it's something as big as FPS' cc or Kick's profiles).

Maybe that would work when a project has been discontinued (like Felmaster), but if someone has an improvement to make, why couldn't it be done within the same thread of the original project, so it's author could implement it?

EDIT: I'm not a developer, I'm just trying to see both sides.

 

[Inrego]

I think wulf is the example of how I feel it should be.

He asks for permission for every line of code he borrows, and he didn't even start working on CLU until cowdude dissapeared.

I think there's a difference between using a line of code here and there abd just taking a whole project and re-releasing it (at least when it's something as big as FPS' cc or Kick's profiles).

Maybe that would work when a project has been discontinued (like Felmaster), but if someone has an improvement to make, why couldn't it be done within the same thread of the original project, so it's author could implement it?

EDIT: I'm not a developer, I'm just trying to see both sides.

As hawker states in the first thread, they're changing the rules because so many developers are absent from their projects. So the way it was before, the updates that other people made was not being implemented in the original project.

At the moment, a lot of projects are stalled and we are getting endless PMs from developers about re-use of code.