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Growing trend - Selling a product and disguising it as donations

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wownerds said:
you seem to miss the fact that devs put countless hours of work into developing stuff. In my opinion, it is great that they are around the forums and provide free versions. If you wish to use an enhanced version of something, you are asked to give money - be it a fixed amount or not.

Just because of the bad comparisons i've read in this thread, i'll try my very best at this "art" now.

Imagine you get a free cheeseburger at any fastfood joint you like. That is a great sacrifice of resources & time for the producers, but still very nice of them.
But you want a double-cheeseburger and are asked to pay for it. Now i ask you: Would you really complain about the double-cheeseburger not being free?

Think about it.

P.s.: For those who do not get the references:

Time = time
resources = anything that is needed for development/testing, e.g. 2nd monitor, red bull, ram, paid versions of visual studio, c# programming books, etc.
Free cheeseburger = free version
double-cheeseburger = enhanced version

sincerely,

wownerds
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love it!!!
 
Makkli said:
This thread is bordering on drama so I'm almost afraid to wade in....almost...but since I have some strong opinions on the subject I'm diving in. This will be an essay but I encourage you to take the time to read it if you have opinions on this topic.

Before I get into the intellectual meat of my post there's a couple of details I think we can all agree to off the bat:
  • Some people are cheap m*f*rs who think they are entitled to everything for nothing and no matter how you structure it or what you call it they are going to whine about not getting it handed to them for free.
  • Some community members here work their asses off and use some pretty amazing skill that's actually worth good money in the real world with no expectation of financial return
  • Without community produced material shared with the rest of said community the bot would not be as useful to most of its users

I think a lot of people are getting hung up on the word donation and its literal definition. So let's look at that first. We're never going to settle here whether or not there is such a thing as a required donation. While I agree that by strict dictionary definition a donation should be at the discretion of the donator I can also name many examples in life where there is such a thing as a required donation. Dictionary definition aside there is a legal concept known as the required donation. Now add to that that virtually all money transacted by third parties in this community is via PayPal. PayPal has two methods, Pay and Donate. Technically, according to Paypal's terms and conditions (at least for this US participant) NOBODY here is using the donation feature properly anyway (I'll carefully choose that word instead of "legally"). Unfortunately the only way to make PayPal take a payor specified amount instead of a seller specified amount without a third party script is via the Donate method. (If I still had a copy of the script I'd offer it here for use so we could get further away from the word donate.)

I think its more important in this particular community with its current ruleset to focus on the intent of the donation requestor rather than the terminology. For the rest of this post I'm going to change my terminology as follows:

paid = required money
tip = not required
free = may or may not include a money transaction link but no money is required (aka tip)

So that drills us down to the core issue: whether or not its right to offer a lesser version of a product for free/tip and a full feature version for pay. Since the devs/mods/powers that be have determined that it is allowed to do just that I have to respect that and agree to play in those rules. I can't code plugins or CCs yet but even as a profile writer I can absolutely appreciate the hours that get dumped into some project. I can understand the desire to want some compensation and appreciate for your time and effort. I would truly hate for some of the great devs who (paid versions or not) are still not getting what their time is worth for the kind of work they are doing to quit. That being said, if this has always been a community of sharing and tipping or selling on the side then it would be foolish for a dev to come in and create product with the primary intention of making money.

For me, that's what it all boils down to. As long as the rules are what they are I have no problem with someone offering a lite version and a paid features version. What I have a problem with is those who's primary intent is to make money off the rest of the community and primarily promoting and transacting that business through this forum through the loophole of "donation". Those of you with your own sites who offer all kinds of free stuff here and link to your site where you also have paid product, you are not who I mean. Even those who do not have their own site but who's posts are intended to offer the free product and just mention the paid as an "oh by the way", you're ok too.

But if you made something with the intent to sell it and then made a gimped version just so you could post here as free then I call flag on the play. Your free product needs to have some value. Even the cheap leader loss shit that gets you in the door at Wal-Mart has some value. Its not broken crap. (Sometimes its still crap though, let's be honest.) Furthermore, the focus/majority of your post here in the forum needs to be about the free/tip version not a ruse to funnel people to your "pay option".

Examples:
Offering and promoting a working, non-buggy plugin or CC for free/tips, throwing in a GUI and maybe a bonus feature or two = Good
Making a product for sale, stripping it down to barely functional and offering it for free solely to promote your paid product = Bad
Making a product, trying to sell it, getting wrist slapped for breaking the rules, stripping out the bare minimum features into a different profile that hasn't really been tested and doesn't work all that well and still promoting the hell out of your paid product anyway with a bait and switch = Worst

So regardless of the method used to transact the money, let's agree to call a spade a spade. If money is required, call it paid even if you're using the Donation feature of PayPal. Just follow the the rules and offer a working product for free first and foremost or do your business elsewhere.

And if you're one of those people in my first bullet stop bitching and try offering a tip once in a while for some of the amazing addon product available here for free which whether you want to admit it or not is still considerable. Then maybe those who are offering wouldn't feel like they have to monetize their work in order to stay motivated.
Click to expand...
Well said
 
you seem to miss the fact that devs put countless hours of work into developing stuff. In my opinion, it is great that they are around the forums and provide free versions. If you wish to use an enhanced version of something, you are asked to give money - be it a fixed amount or not.

Just because of the bad comparisons i've read in this thread, i'll try my very best at this "art" now.

Imagine you get a free cheeseburger at any fastfood joint you like. That is a great sacrifice of resources & time for the producers, but still very nice of them.
But you want a double-cheeseburger and are asked to pay for it. Now i ask you: Would you really complain about the double-cheeseburger not being free?

Think about it.

P.s.: For those who do not get the references:

Time = time
resources = anything that is needed for development/testing, e.g. 2nd monitor, red bull, ram, paid versions of visual studio, c# programming books, etc.
Free cheeseburger = free version
double-cheeseburger = enhanced version

sincerely,

wownerds
Click to expand...
Nice comparison, sadly you guys are giving us a cheeseburger for free, without the meat and cheese. Still calling it a cheeseburger, then on top of that forcing people to pay to get the meat and cheese. This does not go for every dev but even one of them has made people wait up to a week after they have donated for their meat and cheese. You even have one guy with the balls to charge a large fee for his donated version and also have to ignorace to ask for a donation for one of his buddies.

Anyways a few of you don't understand what is being said here. This is about dev;s here putting out free garbage in order to get people to pay for their "Donated" version. This have nothing to do with any of the devs that release fully working cc's and get donations.
 
Plain and simple. For all those who feel they shouldn't have to donate. Do a simple experiment. Create a folder on your desktop. Download the bot you payed for. Extract it to the folder you created and start the bot. Don't download any CC/plugins/profiles as technically none of those are what you payed for. Now start your bot and see what it is capable of doing. You have the option to BG with singular, which IMO is basically asking for a ban and you have the option to run the Archaeologybuddy which will most likely crash in a few minutes after you get stuck in a tree. Enjoy the product you payed for. Be they free or payed, CC's/Plugins/profiles which aren't made and distributed with what you payed for are what makes the bot functional. Without them, the bot it's self is worthless. Because HB sells you half a product and forces the community to make the other half for free. Blame HB for people having to use the "donate" word when they mean "buy".
 
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cm2003 said:
Here is btw. a fresh "sell only" thread for an actually useful plugin...
http://www.thebuddyforum.com/honorb...or-your-honorbuddy-toons-via-google-talk.html
Click to expand...

Alright Swizzie. This is a Addon someone was "selling" The moderators took it upon themselves to take it down because there was no lite/free version. They ARE taking action and I now have no idea why you are still fighting a battle, what is the point, what do you expect out of it? You want these donation receiving developpers to release there product so you can use it?! Wake up brother.

Think of it this way, it is like going to a "fast food joint" again we could say. You can buy the "Meal" (HB) Which comes with fries and drink (Addons, Custom Classes, Profiles) But if you want to get extra cheese, hamburger patty or bacon, your obviously going to need to pay for it. Its not nessesary to have or is it mandatory, you can argue you are paying for it BUT if the service you came for is provided, EXTRA will cost EXTRA. They offer Lite VERSIONS which is a contribution nonetheless.

All of your arguments are one sided and are avoiding the big picture. Most of these GREAT profiles and Custom Classes if donations not received would never have been revealed to the public. Now let me in a sence, be fat, and get as much extra fucking bacon on my burger that I want, you already ate your meal and are trying to pick away at my fucking food. I know my bacon looks good but Buy your own. If you get the analogy.

TGIF, Tupac - Nothin' But Love - YouTube
 
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Botanist said:
Plain and simple. For all those who feel they shouldn't have to donate. Do a simple experiment. Create a folder on your desktop. Download the bot you payed for. Extract it to the folder you created and start the bot. Don't download any CC/plugins/profiles as technically none of those are what you payed for. Now start your bot and see what it is capable of doing. You have the option to BG with singular, which IMO is basically asking for a ban and you have the option to run the Archaeologybuddy which will most likely crash in a few minutes after you gets stuck in a tree. Enjoy the product you payed for.
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Botanist I respect you as a profile creator and such. But you are missing the point of this post. It is not to get free stuff, it is about the release of broken crap in order to get people to buy your working version.
 
LOL ^ This guys histarical, I used Tuanha Paladin free release before buying. Its Great.
 
But once you know someone is giving you watered down beer, don't buy anymore beer from them. Simple bro. How long would it take to figure out who is in it to trick you into buying BS and those who do good work and deserve a little contribution?
 
Again I say,
quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by cm2003
Here is btw. a fresh "sell only" thread for an actually useful plugin...
Sharp Messenger - monitor your Honorbuddy toons via Google Talk!
Alright Swizzie. This is a Addon someone was "selling" The moderators took it upon themselves to take it down because there was no lite/free version. They ARE taking action and I now have no idea why you are still fighting a battle, what is the point, what do you expect out of it? You want these donation receiving developpers to release there product so you can use it?! Wake up brother.

Think of it this way, it is like going to a "fast food joint" again we could say. You can buy the "Meal" (HB) Which comes with fries and drink (Addons, Custom Classes, Profiles) But if you want to get extra cheese, hamburger patty or bacon, your obviously going to need to pay for it. Its not nessesary to have or is it mandatory, you can argue you are paying for it BUT if the service you came for is provided, EXTRA will cost EXTRA. They offer Lite VERSIONS which is a contribution nonetheless.

All of your arguments are one sided and are avoiding the big picture. Most of these GREAT profiles and Custom Classes if donations not received would never have been revealed to the public. Now let me in a sence, be fat, and get as much extra fucking bacon on my burger that I want, you already ate your meal and are trying to pick away at my fucking food. I know my bacon looks good but Buy your own. If you get the analogy.

TGIF, Tupac - Nothin' But Love - YouTube
 
Darkskyz3 said:
Alright Swizzie. This is a Addon someone was "selling" The moderators took it upon themselves to take it down because there was no lite/free version. They ARE taking action and I now have no idea why you are still fighting a battle, what is the point, what do you expect out of it? You want these donation receiving developpers to release there product so you can use it?! Wake up brother.

Think of it this way, it is like going to a "fast food joint" again we could say. You can buy the "Meal" (HB) Which comes with fries and drink (Addons, Custom Classes, Profiles) But if you want to get extra cheese, hamburger patty or bacon, your obviously going to need to pay for it. Its not nessesary to have or is it mandatory, you can argue you are paying for it BUT if the service you came for is provided, EXTRA will cost EXTRA. They offer Lite VERSIONS which is a contribution nonetheless.

All of your arguments are one sided and are avoiding the big picture. Most of these GREAT profiles and Custom Classes if donations not received would never have been revealed to the public. Now let me in a sence, be fat, and get as much extra fucking bacon on my burger that I want, you already ate your meal and are trying to pick away at my fucking food. I know my bacon looks good but Buy your own. If you get the analogy.

TGIF, Tupac - Nothin' But Love - YouTube
Click to expand...
But that is not what this topics about sir, please read before you make comments not really related to the subject. Thanks
 
Current Donation system is bullshit and needs to change, if you allow them to sell a better/working version while the free is shitty and or non functional at least rename the term donation to buy...
I'm about to donate them all and freaking post a link to their updated cc/plugins for everyone for free because they piss me off by how greedy they are atm, I'm not saying their work is worth nothing but that's not how honorbuddy used to work.
 
If the community as a whole can't distinguish the bad apples from the good, maybe they should quit making pies.
 
a simple solution could be to open a "paid stuff" forum, and punish everyone advertising anything "requiring a donation" outside that forum.
but i guess theres some legals in the way, like stuff cng said, selling on the forums is forbidden.
a result should be: everyone requiring a donation should get his/her stuff removed from the forum and be punished on outiside-links or donation requiring. but that isnt.

this "some can, some not, no we do not tell in general whats allowed and whats not" fucks it up.

Venus112 said:
While i dont think its good to provoke the developers, i do agree that this wasnt how it used to be. But i blame the HB team for not following what they say - the others are simply abusing this.
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actually... kinda, yes.

Darkskyz3 said:
The reason I dont want a paid forum is because I dont want this site to become like mmocore or w.e that site is and get blasted with Plvling services, CD keys, WoW Accs and make tools for this site hard to find. As well as I dont quite think it would be the best thing to do for there legal situation, I could be wrong but, I want this site to be around for a while.
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i'd appreciate a "paid fucks" forum more then how it is right now. but yea, its probably not possible, so i suggest the 2nd thingy i wrote anyways.
 
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Swizzie said:
Perhaps I have not really noticed it till now, but looking for other alternatives to Singular has led me into a trail of people disguising their profiles/routines and asking for donations for the unlocked version. A donation is a donation you do not ask for donations for a unlocked or elite version of a item or require a set amount to unlock that item. That is not a donation, that is you, charging a price for your item you are selling.

I would love to sell a few of the 15 accounts I do not use, so does that mean if I ask for donations, you will recieve a free account from me?
I think HB should either ban this or set up a sales section. Because this grey area is turning into people exploiting what donations actually mean.

People are waiting for the product they have donated for for days now. The people running these shams are not even actively servicing their customers. This is going to cause some serious issues and needs attention from the mods.
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#1 I showed you a link that they are giving attention to these no lite version sellers.
#2 I just explained to you how this is a DONATION by showing you that these custom classes are not MANDATORY
#3 How does CC Profiles and such relate to you saying, "cuz there selling stuff, I would love to sell my 15 accs."
#4 Your arguing all of this with use of definitions, tell me good sir what is the definition of a leech?
#5 What "shams" are you talking about, theres a reason they give lite versions, to use the functions they give you or for you to determine if you want to buy it or not.

Now I understand that you cant argue with a brick wall, but fuck it, ill do it anyway.
 
Epicawk said:
Current Donation system is bullshit and needs to change, if you allow them to sell a better/working version while the free is shitty and or non functional at least rename the term donation to buy...
I'm about to donate them all and freaking post a link to their updated cc/plugins for everyone for free because they piss me off by how greedy they are atm, I'm not saying their work is worth nothing but that's not how honorbuddy used to work.
Click to expand...

While i dont think its good to provoke the developers, i do agree that this wasnt how it used to be. But i blame the HB team for not following what they say - the others are simply abusing this.
 
randomstraw said:
a simple solution could be to open a "paid stuff" forum, and punish everyone advertising anything "requiring a donation" outside that forum.
but i guess theres some legals in the way, like stuff cng said, selling on the forums is forbidden.
a result should be: everyone requiring a donation should get his/her stuff removed from the forum and be punished on outiside-links or donation requiring. but that isnt.

this "some can, some not, no we do not tell in general whats allowed and whats not" fucks it up.
Click to expand...

The reason I dont want a paid forum is because I dont want this site to become like mmocore or w.e that site is and get blasted with Plvling services, CD keys, WoW Accs and make tools for this site hard to find. As well as I dont quite think it would be the best thing to do for there legal situation, I could be wrong but, I want this site to be around for a while.
 
Epicawk said:
Current Donation system is bullshit and needs to change, if you allow them to sell a better/working version while the free is shitty and or non functional at least rename the term donation to buy...
I'm about to donate them all and freaking post a link to their updated cc/plugins for everyone for free because they piss me off by how greedy they are atm, I'm not saying their work is worth nothing but that's not how honorbuddy used to work.
Click to expand...

That my good friend will get you banned, I believe.
 
Clearly OP has no idea what he is talking about, picked up on some small shit and now made a shit storm here. Have you done anything good for community? You have active thread that you update constantly and provide community with free goodies for HB? Do you know what it takes constantly write code? Man even if you done something for us, you still should shut your mouth and go debate under yahoo comments about politics you angry cunt
 
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