Fighting Back: Privacy issues arising from the ban

[Thecamel]

Unless i'm stupid can someone tell me how having the information they gathered about you can get you unbanned ?

Using your own words not mine; You must be "stupid" because this thread has nothing to do with getting your account unbanned...

fyi- I'm not calling you stupid..

 

[thebuddybrother]

You're right but a thread said by sending this kind of letters to blizzard, he got his account unbanned.

How can asking for the method the used to get the info and what info they got can get you unbanned ?

 

[Thecamel]

You're right but a thread said by sending this kind of letters to blizzard, he got his account unbanned.

How can asking for the method the used to get the info and what info they got can get you unbanned ?

No idea- but the OP (witch is what this tread is about) never said anything about it...

people have jumped on the bandwagon thinking that unbanning is what this thread is about..

To be honest- Doing as the OP suggested (as I have done) has more chance of getting your battle.net banned closed for good, then getting anything unbanned.

 

[eigoteacher]

You're right but a thread said by sending this kind of letters to blizzard, he got his account unbanned.

How can asking for the method the used to get the info and what info they got can get you unbanned ?

There are multiple explanations for the guy getting unbanned.

1. He is lying. It's easy to fake screenshots. It's easy to take a screenshot of an email and an account that was never banned to begin with.
2. He got lucky. With over 100,000 accounts banned, there are bound to be people who squeeze through the net, either because a GM doesn't completely understand what's going on or just doesn't care. It does not mean that every account can get unbanned.

Threatening them with legal action will not get your account unbanned.

 

[thebuddybrother]

Yes for me it doesnt make any sense.

Thanks for the clarification.


If they actually broke the law what can we expect ?

I'm not against taking a little revenge because this banwave made me lose my 10 years old account, and also my mother is a lawyer so i doesn't pay anything fighting with them.
I know i shouldn't have botted on it but i'm a lazy person and grinding manually isn't my cup of tea.

 

[eigoteacher]

Yes for me it doesnt make any sense.

Thanks for the clarification.


If they actually broke the law what can we expect ?

I'm not against taking a little revenge because this banwave made me lose my 10 years old account, and also my mother is a lawyer so i doesn't pay anything fighting with them.
I know i shouldn't have botted on it but i'm a lazy person and grinding manually isn't my cup of tea.

It depends on what law they broke, but as for the privacy law, they haven't broken it.

 

[Darkdog72]

Unless i'm stupid can someone tell me how having the information they gathered about you can get you unbanned ?

First of all, we don't know what information they have on us. That is just speculation.

Secondly. Stop quoting the EULA and ToS, we all have access to it and most have read it (like I said in my previous reply to you, I was just waiting for you to completely ignore what I wrote and copy/paste old news instead). There is no point in quoting the EULA or ToS in this matter. I don't know where you are located, but in countries that do not have a common law system, a ToS cannot override any applicable, non-amendable laws and consumer rights, as long as the contract is between a private individual and a business. We wouldn't even have such laws if they could be overriden. A ToS can only outline the finer, product specific details that is obviously not covered by the law, but it's an addition to the law and is only valid when it is not in conflict with it. As I've mention before, it is not illegal to demand that you sign an invalid EULA or ToS, but it wouldn't hold in court. In such a case, it's not uncommon that the license issuer will quietly compensate you in some way, to avoid having to take it to court. It's a matter of money, and if few enough dispute it and enough people believe it to be valid, that's the cheaper option.

As I pointed out in a previous post, you are engaged in a commercial agreement with Blizzard. You gave Blizzard your money in exchange for a service. Blizzard claim you are in breach of contract, stops the service, keeps your money, but refuse to pass the evidence or even describe to you what you have done in a way that eventually enables you to dispute the claim. This violates your right according to the law, and to me also by all morale standards I can relate to. If Blizzard fail to document in what way you were in breach of contract, in such a way that you have a chance of defending yourself, there has been no breach of contract because they can't or don't want to prove it. Hence they need to restore your account or blatantly violate the law and risk enormous fees.

My assertion is that they are doing this because they have some evidence that the software ran on the computer. However, I don't think they have enough evidence to link you or your account directly to the breach of contract, so they are trying to bully people into accepting it. In this matter, you are doing exactly what they want people to do, not understanding their rights, and you even advocate not understanding those rights and acting upon them. If took it to court, they will not win if the suspension was based upon general detection of the software, without any proof in-game that you actually ran the bot to perform anything. This is vital, because your minor might installed software, or a friend, without your knowing, or you logged in to WoW on a compromised computer at someone else's house or even a public computer.

This got much longer than I planned to write, but at least I've spoon fed you what I wrote previously, with step by step reasoning.

I don't know what legal experience you have, but I have been working with software licenses and contracts for about 15 years, and also been engaged in both the EFF in the US and the local version of it in my own country for 10 years.

 

[Darkdog72]

To be honest- Doing as the OP suggested (as I have done) has more chance of getting your battle.net banned closed for good, then getting anything unbanned.

Blizzard has already stated their punishment of your violation, in writing. If you dispute such a claim in any reasonable, albeit possibly stupid way, all they can do is to upheld it. They cannot extend the punishment beyond that, unless you did something additional that broke your agreements. Complaining or contacting customer support is no such thing. Anything else is abusive (which isn't surprising), so just watch your steps since we know what kind of people we are dealing with.

I can assure you though, that Blizzard is watching this message board pretty closely right now and if anyone is as stupid as to quote posts here and use them to appeal, it's a recipe for disaster.

Likewise, I can assure you that if anyone manage to appeal their ban in any way that isn't by sending some template mail, if the appeal is posted here, they will just look up who wrote that same appeal, reinstate the ban and probably close that account for good, since by posting here, you implicitly admit to having botted.

The only reasonable way to deal with this would be to put up a separate web page or blog, that is not affiliated with this site in any way, document stuff and provide legal advice on how to approach Blizzard. That way, quoting or using template mails would be completely legit and not took as a proof you are guilty. If you post something found only here, I can assure you that they will not lift the ban, but let you take it all the way to court, no matter how legally valid what you send is.

 

[eigoteacher]

First of all, we don't know what information they have on us. That is just speculation.

Actually, you do. It's the information you gave them consent to gather.

Secondly. Stop quoting the EULA and ToS, we all have access to it and most have read it (like I said in my previous reply to you, I was just waiting for you to completely ignore what I wrote and copy/paste old news instead). There is no point in quoting the EULA or ToS in this matter.

Incorrect.

I don't know where you are located, but in countries that do not have a common law system, a ToS cannot override any applicable, non-amendable laws and consumer rights, as long as the contract is between a private individual and a business.

The ToS does not override any law. Which laws do you think it overrides? It's not overriding the privacy law.

We wouldn't even have such laws if they could be overriden. A ToS can only outline the finer, product specific details that is obviously not covered by the law, but it's an addition to the law and is only valid when it is not in conflict with it. As I've mention before, it is not illegal to demand that you sign an invalid EULA or ToS, but it wouldn't hold in court.

Source? It counts as consent. It would hold in court.

In such a case, it's not uncommon that the license issuer will quietly compensate you in some way, to avoid having to take it to court. It's a matter of money, and if few enough dispute it and enough people believe it to be valid, that's the cheaper option.

Please, show me all the people that have been compensated by gaming companies after being banned.

As I pointed out in a previous post, you are engaged in a commercial agreement with Blizzard. You gave Blizzard your money in exchange for a service. Blizzard claim you are in breach of contract, stops the service, keeps your money, but refuse to pass the evidence or even describe to you what you have done in a way that eventually enables you to dispute the claim.

Their refusal to pass the evidence is protected by the law.

This violates your right according to the law, and to me also by all morale standards I can relate to.

What law?

If Blizzard fail to document in what way you were in breach of contract, in such a way that you have a chance of defending yourself, there has been no breach of contract because they can't or don't want to prove it. Hence they need to restore your account or blatantly violate the law and risk enormous fees.

They don't have to present the evidence, as stated by the privacy law.

My assertion is that they are doing this because they have some evidence that the software ran on the computer. However, I don't think they have enough evidence to link you or your account directly to the breach of contract, so they are trying to bully people into accepting it.

They scanned your computer and found something playing WoW on your account.

In this matter, you are doing exactly what they want people to do, not understanding their rights, and you even advocate not understanding those rights and acting upon them.

I'm the only one who actually read the law and pointed at that you are wrong. If you know other laws, post their names so I can read them. Stop talking about laws but never giving their names. You're just making stuff up.

If took it to court, they will not win if the suspension was based upon general detection of the software, without any proof in-game that you actually ran the bot to perform anything. This is vital, because your minor might installed software, or a friend, without your knowing, or you logged in to WoW on a compromised computer at someone else's house or even a public computer.

It doesn't matter. You accepted the terms, you are responsible for anything that happened to the account. The terms say you are also responsible for any account security. When they restore accounts due to being compromised, they are really just being kind to their customers.

This got much longer than I planned to write, but at least I've spoon fed you what I wrote previously, with step by step reasoning.

Your reasoning is wrong.

I don't know what legal experience you have, but I have been working with software licenses and contracts for about 15 years, and also been engaged in both the EFF in the US and the local version of it in my own country for 10 years.

Good job. Too bad that has nothing to do with law.

Blizzard has already stated their punishment of your violation, in writing. If you dispute such a claim in any reasonable, albeit possibly stupid way, all they can do is to upheld it. They cannot extend the punishment beyond that, unless you did something additional that broke your agreements. Complaining or contacting customer support is no such thing. Anything else is abusive (which isn't surprising), so just watch your steps since we know what kind of people we are dealing with.

Also incorrect. The agreement states that they can ban the account any time they want for any reason. Therefore, they can change the punishment any time they want.

I can assure you though, that Blizzard is watching this message board pretty closely right now and if anyone is as stupid as to quote posts here and use them to appeal, it's a recipe for disaster.

Evidence?

The only reasonable way to deal with this would be to put up a separate web page or blog, that is not affiliated with this site in any way, document stuff and provide legal advice on how to approach Blizzard. That way, quoting or using template mails would be completely legit and not took as a proof you are guilty. If you post something found only here, I can assure you that they will not lift the ban, but let you take it all the way to court, no matter how legally valid what you send is.

The only reasonable thing to do is to move on.

 

[Darkdog72]

eigoteacher,

Why are you so obsessed about giving away all your rights? One could even suspect you're a representative for Blizzard's legal department.

Just to make this clear in case you're getting something wrong. I'm not saying that if you bot, you didn't break the agreement and hence can't be banned. Obviously you can, and that is regulated by the ToS.

However, as to enforce such a ban, Blizzard has to adhere to certain legal rules in each and every country they offer the product. Again you have this twisted view that the EULA overrides unamendable laws.

The bottom line is, if you don't care about your rights and want to move on, do so, It's your choice. I'm pretty sure we'll see something really ugly coming out of all of this in the end.

 

[eigoteacher]

eigoteacher,

Why are you so obsessed about giving away all your rights? One could even suspect you're a representative for Blizzard's legal department.

I'm not giving away any of my rights. You're not mentioning any rights that can be given away. You're just saying "rights" without actually stating what those rights are or what they mean.

Just shouting "my rights!!" doesn't mean anything.

Just to make this clear in case you're getting something wrong. I'm not saying that if you bot, you didn't break the agreement and hence can't be banned. Obviously you can, and that is regulated by the ToS.

However, as to enforce such a ban, Blizzard has to adhere to certain legal rules in each and every country they offer the product. Again you have this twisted view that the EULA overrides unamendable laws.

Name the rules.
Name the laws.

If you can't, nothing is being overridden.

The bottom line is, if you don't care about your rights and want to move on, do so, It's your choice. I'm pretty sure we'll see something really ugly coming out of all of this in the end.

I don't know why you think I don't care about my rights. You are simply misunderstanding what rights you have and how they apply to this.

 

[Darkdog72]

I'm not giving away any of my rights. You're not mentioning any rights that can be given away. You're just saying "rights" without actually stating what those rights are or what they mean.

...

I don't know why you think I don't care about my rights. You are simply misunderstanding what rights you have and how they apply to this.

Let's put it this way. If you are happy with your interpretation of your rights, then go with it. If you're so sure you are right, that I and some others who means different are wrong, why don't you just sit back and smile watching us waste our time? You haven't backed up for one moment in any credible way why you are more right in this issue, apart from thundering and coming up with a horrible interpretation of a single law.

I have some idea, apart from reading laws you already refered to, as well as some of the local laws in this country. I do have some idea because I've been working with this for years and interacted with attorneys in every one and single case, being briefed on why and why not something can be included in the licenses, or whether it would be valid.

Additionally, I have some references and stuff that I'm writing up on to help a few people, but disclosing those legal details and strategy in public on this forum, at the very moment would not be a wise idea before even testing it. Likewise, this case and how Blizzard responds to it, has been brought up for a government consumer agency with the preliminary conclusion that this is most likely in violation of consumer rights and also constitutes unfair contract terms, but is subject to due review upon receiving full documentation and copy of all communication.

The most important thing now is to come up with a legal way of dealing with it, to try to enforce Blizzard to follow applicable laws and then use it to set precedence. If they choose to do so, that's is none of your business whatsoever. This is not to enforce a reversal of a rightful ban, but a matter of principle. By doing so and finding the proofs to be shaky, it might end up having bigger implications.

This however doesn't apply to you so just move on, as you said because that's what you want to do. Hasta la Vista.

 

[Aion]

Name the rules.
Name the laws.
If you can't, nothing is being overridden.

You still want us believe you are not Blizzard Representative, or Blizzard wanna-be forum-troll?

Since I have witnessed at least 5-6 times last night in this forum how you were answered with numbers of these regulations and laws, applicable for European Union.

How could people care to name you something again, since you "forget" them on-the-fly?

 

[Darkdog72]

You still want us believe you are not Blizzard Representative, or Blizzard wanna-be forum-troll?

Since I have witnessed at least 5-6 times last night in this forum how you were answered with numbers of these regulations and laws, applicable for European Union.

How could people care to name you something again, since you "forget" them on-the-fly?

If this person doesn't have an agenda, it's obvious that he or she is utterly ignorant or just a troll. I don't think Blizzard would be as stupid as to send people here to post bad legal advice, considering the implication if they got busted - a major PR hit. More likely one of the rabid "death penalty for botting, no parole and noone is innocent" clowns from the wow forum. Eventually, he just means well and doesn't know any better.

 

[CimmerianRage]

I think, wherever there is possibilty to push back, people should push back. If I were financially capable of hiring an attorney to sue over this, you bet your ass I would. Just to make them defend it. They KNOW most people won't, because its cheaper not to. If this ever got to a discovery phase in court they would be legally obligated to say how the detection happened. But you need a few things to make a (STRICTLY HYPOTHETICAL) court case out of this on our end that are difficult, but not impossible, to come up with. Speaking from US a legal standpoint, we would need an allegation of wrongdoing on the part of the company. This could be a privacy rights violations, or some such, which would have, to have -enough- merit to survive their definite motion for summary dismissal (They like to move for summary judgements because its cheaper for them).

You also have to remember that this would be a civil case, so the burden of proof is only a Preponderance of the evidence. You can search the meaning of that if you are unclear. Also, to be frank, like most cases, OUR (alleged) wrongdoing by botting does not excuse them from any illegality in how they found out we were (allegedly) botting. Regardless of their "right" to "cancel our account at any time with or without warning" most state laws include a "law of merchantability" which means if you buy something (even a months subscription to a video game) you have a reasonable expectation that you will receive what you (thought you) paid for.

This means if they knew about their intent to deliver bans on a specific day, any charges made between the time the list of banned accounts was compiled, and the time of the actual ban taking place -could- be used to argue malicious intent on the part of the company to defraud its subscribers which could also lay grounds for a (HYPOTHETICAL) criminal case. Blizzard knew they were going to ban these accounts yet they billed them anyway, breaking the "law of merchantability" (dependent on state), and also deliberately taking funds for a service they did not intend to provide. <-(That's fraud btw, and since it crosses a state jurisdiction its federal court time). It is a bit of a stretch, off the cuff, to put together, but time, and research would allow referenced precedent cases to surface. Like I said. I don't have the resources to look into it, and i don't care that much. My 6 accounts were perma-banned after I did charge backs.

 

[webhond]

You still want us believe you are not Blizzard Representative, or Blizzard wanna-be forum-troll?

Since I have witnessed at least 5-6 times last night in this forum how you were answered with numbers of these regulations and laws, applicable for European Union.

How could people care to name you something again, since you "forget" them on-the-fly?

funny how you defend anything by throwing laws and links around.

now someone else does it but its not in your courtyard and hes a troll or a blizz employee.

still waiting for you to respond on the so called busted ticket / letter claim you " vouched " for since u read somethign simular somewhere.


The so called " im unbanned by sending a letter "

im sure you somehow " missed it "


here u go

today i recived a phonecall from blizzard and my 6 month's ban was gone.

I sent them a letter by post. This is what i wrote to them ;

Send this to their legal team.

Actually no, OP. It wasn't written by an attorney. It was written by me. Stop lying, it's terrible for your soul.

And here's the best part...after I sent it to ICU, I sent it to a user over Skype. Sephirofl might have shared it...but unlikely.

Since I wrote this on Monday, three days have not passed - you haven't sent it, it never reached their offices, and furthermore, they didn't 'call' you, because a callback must be registered through a ticket - and the legal offices (which you apparently sent this to) will not call you back without a licensed attourney present.

no one is being unbanned.

 

[Darkdog72]

I think, wherever there is possibilty to push back, people should push back. If I were financially capable of hiring an attorney to sue over this, you bet your ass I would. Just to make them defend it. They KNOW most people won't, because its cheaper not to. If this ever got to a discovery phase in court they would be legally obligated to say how the detection happened. But you need a few things to make a (STRICTLY HYPOTHETICAL) court case out of this on our end that are difficult, but not impossible, to come up with.

If the number of suspended accounts is right (100K+), it shouldn't be a problem to get an initial cost estimate from a good legal firm specializing in these kind of cases and set up a crowd funding project for it. If everyone paid $1 per banned account, we'd already come a long way. I for one am sure that a lot of people would donate a whole lot more. However, I think it would be wise to run a hearing or initial court case in the country with the strictest laws regarding this, as the first phase would ultimately be about having them reveal the method used for suspending people. This method would be the same all over, and could possible give the upper hand to start a lawsuit elsewhere.

Speaking from US a legal standpoint, we would need an allegation of wrongdoing on the part of the company. This could be a privacy rights violations, or some such, which would have, to have -enough- merit to survive their definite motion for summary dismissal (They like to move for summary judgements because its cheaper for them).

This is what I mentioned in another post. You need something to force them to reveal their cards, then expand on it from there. However, I don't think it should be that hard as they have terminated a lot of people's accounts and withheld their payment, which means they need to document beyond doubt that there is a breach of contract in effect. Also, the current policy refusing to answer customer's legitimate request for information and documentation is by itself grounds to try them.

Ultimately, if they did something dubious they may just choose to revert the bans, and let people go with it. Almost no matter what they have done, I fail to see how they can have detected this in a way that is 100% certain didn't give false positives, and thus they will have to prove every single case being questioned. It is not possible to defend yourself against the suspension, unless you have the information needed to do so.

This means if they knew about their intent to deliver bans on a specific day, any charges made between the time the list of banned accounts was compiled, and the time of the actual ban taking place -could- be used to argue malicious intent on the part of the company to defraud its subscribers which could also lay grounds for a (HYPOTHETICAL) criminal case. Blizzard knew they were going to ban these accounts yet they billed them anyway, breaking the "law of merchantability" (dependent on state), and also deliberately taking funds for a service they did not intend to provide.

I've already mentioned this. If they accept payments for a service after the moment they knew you were botting, they have dismissed their right to suspend you as they accepted further business from you, which is also fraudulent. Likewise if they deliberately waited for people to spend their gold buying tokens (they know there is no chargeback possible with these).

Just by forcing them to reveal when you were detected, you could build a case based upon you purchasing anything after that date (tokens, mounts, pets, game time). I'm not wanting to discuss a lot of other issues in the open here, because dropping your cards early is bad.

 

[eigoteacher]

You still want us believe you are not Blizzard Representative, or Blizzard wanna-be forum-troll?

Since I have witnessed at least 5-6 times last night in this forum how you were answered with numbers of these regulations and laws, applicable for European Union.

How could people care to name you something again, since you "forget" them on-the-fly?

I'm an English teacher who lives in Japan. I've botted Diablo 3, Hearthstone, and WoW. I've been banned in all three games. How am I a Blizzard representative? Asking for proof to back up your claims is not trolling.

 

[eigoteacher]

If the number of suspended accounts is right (100K+), it shouldn't be a problem to get an initial cost estimate from a good legal firm specializing in these kind of cases and set up a crowd funding project for it. If everyone paid $1 per banned account, we'd already come a long way. I for one am sure that a lot of people would donate a whole lot more. However, I think it would be wise to run a hearing or initial court case in the country with the strictest laws regarding this, as the first phase would ultimately be about having them reveal the method used for suspending people. This method would be the same all over, and could possible give the upper hand to start a lawsuit elsewhere.

There's not going to be a lawsuit.

This is what I mentioned in another post. You need something to force them to reveal their cards, then expand on it from there.

You can't. They are protected by privacy laws.

However, I don't think it should be that hard as they have terminated a lot of people's accounts and withheld their payment, which means they need to document beyond doubt that there is a breach of contract in effect.

They need to? What law says that?

Also, the current policy refusing to answer customer's legitimate request for information and documentation is by itself grounds to try them.

It is not. The only information you are legally able to ask for is personal data. Ban information is not considered personal data by the law. Their method for banning is protected by the law. Again, read the law before talking.

Ultimately, if they did something dubious they may just choose to revert the bans, and let people go with it.

They followed the terms which you agreed to. Nothing dubious about that. They are protected by the law.

Almost no matter what they have done, I fail to see how they can have detected this in a way that is 100% certain didn't give false positives, and thus they will have to prove every single case being questioned. It is not possible to defend yourself against the suspension, unless you have the information needed to do so.

Legally, you waived your right to defend yourself by agreeing to the terms. Any laws regarding this have phrasing that say they can do so if they have legal, valid consent from the user, which they have. They are under no obligation to prove every case as there are no laws saying so.

I've already mentioned this. If they accept payments for a service after the moment they knew you were botting, they have dismissed their right to suspend you as they accepted further business from you, which is also fraudulent. Likewise if they deliberately waited for people to spend their gold buying tokens (they know there is no chargeback possible with these).

No law stated, no evidence to support what you're saying, so everything you say is thrown out.

Just by forcing them to reveal when you were detected, you could build a case based upon you purchasing anything after that date (tokens, mounts, pets, game time). I'm not wanting to discuss a lot of other issues in the open here, because dropping your cards early is bad.

You have no legal way to force them to reveal anything. If you can find a law, mention it.

Don't believe anything this person says unless he posts laws to back up his claims, otherwise he is just spouting nonsense. He has to provide evidence that what he says is true in the legal sense, but everything he says is based on his own conjecture and none of it is legal advice. Every time he speaks, he only talks about these phantom rights and laws without mentioning them by name. That is because they don't exist. He doesn't know any laws. Unless he has a list of laws that can be used to argue his case, every single thing he says is simply conjecture and can be dismissed.

 

[ITGuy]

There are multiple explanations for the guy getting unbanned.

1. He is lying. It's easy to fake screenshots. It's easy to take a screenshot of an email and an account that was never banned to begin with.
2. He got lucky. With over 100,000 accounts banned, there are bound to be people who squeeze through the net, either because a GM doesn't completely understand what's going on or just doesn't care. It does not mean that every account can get unbanned.

Threatening them with legal action will not get your account unbanned.

Why do you feel the need to keep commenting on this thread, you have made your point you do not support the OP's actions. Why do you feel the need to attempt to "win" an online conversation? If you are a teacher like you say you are i'm surprised you feel so strongly about something that does not directly affect you.

Your comments are not going to persuade anyone to "Not" go through with what the OP has recommended your just blowing air for no reason. it's honestly quite amusing to see how worked up your getting.