Developer Rules Update

[tonari]

New dev's will replace them. No problem.

May i ask who those devs are, are u sure about that or just hoping someone will pick up the work? So far it seems all devs that actually updated their work and was redoing their code are gone, with exceptions ofc, but what i don't understand is like a week before u where praising the work of those cc devs and now u are calling them selfish f****and a bunch of other names because they fight for their work.
The idea of having the class main thread for the original coder and subforum for repost is a great idea, everyone will know who made it and ppl will just post their edited work, and it up to us if we use it or not. For now the dev community looks really slim and i can hope and pray that this will change to better.
As current wow expansion is very much dead this will not be felt so much now, but somehow i am bit scared what will happen when mop hits, when all of the work will need to be redone and who will do this when most of the old devs are gone, not saying there isn't more skilled coders here but now we depend on those new ones to start the new work, if it happens great if not guess we are done in terms of high end pvp and pve CCs, again there are exceptions here.

@ the guy that is saying he will repost all the work, can't even be bothered to see his name, idk what to think of him. Either he will be the f***** king of HB if he manage to keep and update like 40+ ccs and plugins to the high standard that they are now, if not don't even bother as u will only give more work for the staff to archive all those threads again since on new patch/expansion none of them will work.

 

[Croga]

I consider coding an art form.

And therein lies your problem.
Coding is part art, part science. To improve the codebase, diversity is necessary. Diversity will not, nor can, come from one person.
There is but one light of science and to brighten it anywhere is to brighten it everywhere.
If code-reuse is prohibited, code-quality will never improve as much as it could be when sharing code.

 

[Hawker]

May i ask who those devs are, are u sure about that or just hoping someone will pick up the work?

..snip...

Coding is enjoyable - you can create beautiful things. Access to open source projects adds to this as you don't waste time re-inventing what others have done. Having a forum like this where you get user feedback adds even more. Users make a project grow and the more users you have, the quicker bugs are found and new features added.

Wait 4 weeks and see if we lack for anything...

 

[fiftypence]

And therein lies your problem.
Coding is part art, part science. To improve the codebase, diversity is necessary. Diversity will not, nor can, come from one person.
There is but one light of science and to brighten it anywhere is to brighten it everywhere.
If code-reuse is prohibited, code-quality will never improve as much as it could be when sharing code.

A deep and insightful comment, and probably the first that I agree with in defence of the latest policy change.

My point is not that code sharing is bad (I actively provide permission to the majority of users who ask to use my code and have contributed to open source software both in the past and the present), on the contrary I think open source software is the future. My point is that I believe, despite my personal opinion on open source software, that developers should be given the choice.

 

[Hawker]

A deep and insightful comment, and probably the first that I agree with in defence of the latest policy change.

My point is not that code sharing is bad (I actively provide permission to the majority of users who ask to use my code and have contributed to open source software both in the past and the present), on the contrary I think open source software is the future. My point is that I believe, despite my personal opinion on open source software, that developers should be given the choice.

As a matter of principle, I believe the open source model is the best way to develop this type of code. At a personal level, I have no interest in reading obscenity filled "he stole my code" rants. There is no downside to this - I don't get what you and Venus are protesting when your own project was already under the BSD license. What logic do you have for withdrawing it?

 

[fiftypence]

As a matter of principle, I believe the open source model is the best way to develop this type of code. At a personal level, I have no interest in reading obscenity filled "he stole my code" rants. There is no downside to this - I don't get what you and Venus are protesting when your own project was already under the BSD license. What logic do you have for withdrawing it?

I had no input on whether or not he withdrew the all-in-one CC project. I only consulted on one portion of the project and only returned from vacation today. Perhaps I can shed some light on his reasoning, though.

Firstly, he was likely unaware of the licence that the project was originally released under (he took over the project from a previous author.) This means that previously he believed he had some semblance of control over the reuse of his code. In the past moderators have protected authors, regardless of the software licence in use, so he had no real way to know. The reason he opposes the mandatory change in licence is because he believes that it is unfair to the author of a project to allow any user to create a branch of their own and release it under their own name, in many cases with minimal effort, without explicit permission.

 

[Kroniq]

The reason he opposes the mandatory change in licence is because he believes that it is unfair to the author of a project to allow any user to create a branch of their own and release it under their own name, in many cases with minimal effort, without explicit permission.

Is this a real problem that comes up? Like i mean are there people currently rebranding and entire cc with a minor change or tweak and putting it out as their own? Since i've been here i cant think of any examples of this happening.

 

[wownerds]

Is this a real problem that comes up? Like i mean are there people currently rebranding and entire cc with a minor change or tweak and putting it out as their own? Since i've been here i cant think of any examples of this happening.

Because up to now, the rules did not allow this.

 

[Kroniq]

Yes it would have previously been in violation of the rules but i was more asking if its been attempted and maybe taken down by mods or site admin. It just seems a like lot of hoopla over a problem that doesn't exist. The possibility that a problem could hypothetically but never has happened or showed signs of being an issue seems to be a very minute reason for people to pull their work down over although i do beleive it should be their choice to do so and not have it reposted by others. Im highly against reposting against the authors wishes.

 

[Hawker]

Because up to now, the rules did not allow this.

Thats not true - it wasn't a problem on the Glider or the OpenBot forums and it isn't a problem here.

Yes it would have previously been in violation of the rules but i was more asking if its been attempted and maybe taken down by mods or site admin. It just seems a like lot of hoopla over a problem that doesn't exist. The possibility that a problem could hypothetically but never has happened or showed signs of being an issue seems to be a very minute reason for people to pull their work down over although i do beleive it should be their choice to do so and not have it reposted by others. Im highly against reposting against the authors wishes.

We will allow repost abandoned projects and projects that are already under the BSD license.

 

[wownerds]

We will allow repost abandoned projects and projects that are already under the BSD license.

Even if those projects are just hosted elsewhere (under some other license) and no files are remaining on your servers? 'Cause that'd be a quite obvious copyright infringement.

 

[Apoc]

Folks, please keep in mind, if people are rebranding entire CCs/Plugins with 1 line changes, the userbase will know, and the "new author" will just catch a giant load of... for lack of a better word... shit. Developers do have standards. Copy/paste artists do not. We have moral obligations to not be complete jerks and give credit where credit is due.

This new rule change is to allow code to grow, not be stuck in 1 author's hand, who sometimes thinks that the way they did it, is the only, and best way to do it. I've given many code-reviews to authors here, fixing bugs, improving performance, and just plain explaining how to do things. Some authors take it to heart, some shrug it off as if I don't know what I'm talking about. This new rule would allow me to make all of those changes, and show exactly the difference between what they do, and what can be done. This applies to any developer on the site, not just me.

Personally, I'd rather have the original author make said changes, etc. But if its to better the community as a whole, sure, I'll release a modified version of a CC/Plugin with any fixes, features, etc in it, and have absolutely zero regrets. (Well, I might regret having to support it, but that's another story entirely)

The new rule should (and hopefully will) push developers to put out higher quality code, considering many more developers can be working on their code. It will also stop developers from inundating staff because user xyz copied 6 lines of code and a filename. If you decide you have no interest in letting others touch your code, don't release it. That's your prerogative. We don't, and never will, have a rule stating "anything you code using the HB API must be released". We're not stifling developers, we're helping them. Come back in a month if you don't think so.

 

[Hawker]

Even if those projects are just hosted elsewhere (under some other license) and no files are remaining on your servers? 'Cause that'd be a quite obvious copyright infringement.

No - I specifically excluded that earlier.

 

[likwid818]

I have borrowed code from other developers, almost everyone has borrowed code from other developers. Each and every time I have asked the original developer for their permission, its simply a matter of manners and respect to do so. Where I have used a significant amount of code in my work that has been created by another person I will give them full credit for it, because that is the right thing to do. When I publicly released (past tense) my CCs to this community it was done with the expectation my work was 'safe' and the forum rules in place afforded me a certain level of protection against 'theft'. Simply put, the moderators were active in their enforcement of the forum rules and dealt with code / CC theft quickly and efficiently.

I created CCs because at one specific time I felt that either the class was not represented with sufficient options i.e not enough CCs, or that the available CCs were deficient in some feature and/or functionality. Now, I create CCs because I enjoy doing it, I enjoy the challenge of creating combat logic that is smart, efficient and as human as possible. I enjoy creating a project that is visually and logically user friendly; you don't look at the UI and have to ask yourself "WTF, how do I change this setting?". I enjoy adding new features that other projects don't have. Simply put, I do it for the enjoyment; the recognition is nice too

I don't mind developers borrowing my code snippets, I don't mind developers borrowing my ideas, I don't my people modifying my entire CC for personal / private use, I do mind people copying my entire project(s). With the changes to the Developer Rules and the introduction BSD licensing I have no confidence that my work will not be taken in its entirety, renamed, tweaked slightly and released as a new work by someone else. I don't care that imitation is the greatest form of flattery, I don't do this work so people can copy it.

I released my previous work under the active developer rules at the time, and as such if these same rules do not apply to my currently released work then I will be removing it. Before you say anything, yes I am being selfish! I am being selfish because I put countless hours into my original work and I don't want someone coming along tweaking a few lines and re-releasing it, I don't care if by doing so they make it better. Again, yes I'm being a selfish prick! You can use my code snippets but don't take my entire works. The community will still grow and new projects will still be developed.

As Hawker stated if we do not agree with the rules of these forums we can host our work elsewhere. I will be exercising my right to do so while the BSD license is in effect on these forums.

FYI I am still actively developing Fpsware Unity, but it will not be released on this forum. Those interested in using Unity can contact me via PM.

Well said.

 

[paperc07]

well we get the point what's done is done, rules are rules so can we delete all the posts and lock this thread there is no point in talking about this anymore just leave it as a sticky labeled Developer Rules Update and leave it at that PLEASE!

 

[Kronz]

well we get the point what's done is done, rules are rules so can we delete all the posts and lock this thread there is no point in talking about this anymore just leave it as a sticky labeled Developer Rules Update and leave it at that PLEASE!

Yes, there is a point talking about it. We, as end users lose if the developers feel like leaving. What are we going to be stuck with ? Singular, which is barely capable of properly handling leveling and grinding.

AutoAngler ? Forget it.
Glue ? Yeah, right.
PVPRogue ? Lol nice one.
FPSWare ? What the hell is that.
Numerous plugins, which make our lives better ? Gone down the drain.

While abandoned projects is OK to be tweaked and fixed and supported by copy-pasters, until a real coder offers a suitable replacement, if developers of active projects don't want to work under the new license terms, perhaps it would be better if Bossland talked to the developers and ironed out the license policy to satisfy them.

Whoever said there is no community here earlier in the thread was correct. There is just us, a bunch of customers, who paid for the bot and use whatever materials are posted on the forums, and then there are developers who post new stuff for all of us to use.

I don't know what exactly has lead to the downfall of HB, but I see a very sharp difference from where it used to be in Wrath and now, at the end of Cata, and things are much worse. Let me summarize the present state of this so called community for those of you, who think it's too complicated and deep. Protip - it's not.

1. We have like 5 developers here who contribute.
2. We have a user base of people who mainly lurk, try to fight with the worthless search engine, or to dig up through tons of outdated guides and advice, which is no longer applicable at best.
3. We have users who constantly beg for help and advice, only there are too few knowledgeable posters outside of the official dev team, who can provide it.
4. We have an overworked dev team, which now tries to support not just WoW, but SWTOR, too. Their numbers are little and their efforts are too stretched out to be of much help, even though they try very hard.
5. We have a giant section of "archived" materials, which can no longer be of any real use to end users, but they are still there to remind us "where we were".

What comes out of all of this ? Here is what.
1. We get like a total of 7 working CC's, most of them useful only for leveling, existing because Singular failed at some stage of its life at some class mechanic and it was annoying enough for someone to issue a fix in the form a different CC. We have, in fact, more "Custom Classes" forum subsections than there are CC's for, as most CC's in these sub-forums are dead and the remaining can barely fill a single forum.
2. We get a ton of reposts of user questions, all of which can be safely pruned and instead summarized into a single manual. Such a manual will make 99% of the "user-generated content" on this forum obsolete, and also relieve the staff of constantly having to answer the same questions over and over.
3. We get bug reports, which again, after taken into careful consideration, can be summarized into a single sticky in a dedicated forum of their own, with advice for customers how to work around the bugs while a fix is released.

Really, this forum looks big at first sight, but after browsing for a bit it becomes clear very fast how dead it actually is. I would suggest, for the sake of everyone involved that Bossland sit down, talk to the community developers and come up with a satisfactory solution for all sides, as people who contribute volunteer work can very easily leave if they don't like something and currently we have almost no real developers outside of the official dev team. Only the exceptional work of the official dev team keeps this bot going now.

 

[znuffie]

I think some people are getting too butt-hurt about this.

I'm sorry to say this, fps - you've done a lot of work on CCs that were used extensively by a lot of members of the community. I've used your CCs many times, too, sometimes I've enjoyed them, sometimes I got pissed of how you decided to do stuff but...

The problem is that you sometime decide to just disappear for months leaving your CCs abandoned. I clearly remember when the HB team decided to remove some API calls (some Lua stuff that was marked as deprecated for months) in a release, and that broke down your CCs completely. People were crying on the forums that your CCs stopped working, and the devs had to pull the release and re-roll the changes just for that!

I've always considered that if you release your stuff in source code, people will and should have the ability to edit it for themselves and do whatever they want with it. The community will weed out the lazy and unworthy easily, and at the end the "true" author will always be regarded as a hero by the community and not the "fake" ones that just copy/paste bits of code on top of someone else's work and claim it as their own.

Heck, personally I've always preferred a license like this for small bits of codes: ESL - Fredrik Vold Information

 

[chemical]

we cannot allow closed source releases (releases as dll's). because if a developer decided to go rouge and put in a key logger or do something else malicious, there's no way for anyone to look at the code, and there's even less of a chance that it would be caught right away. from what ive been told, it is illegal to distribute malicious code (or something to that extent) and bossland and the company would be in trouble. thats one of the reasons we dont allow it.

how about making the cc developer submit it to a Dev and they'll release it as dll..? that way if anything does happen it'll be on the dev team

 

[Cukie]

how about making the cc developer submit it to a Dev and they'll release it as dll..? that way if anything does happen it'll be on the dev team

Lol cause the HB team isn't busy enough, right?

 

[chemical]

Lol cause the HB team isn't busy enough, right?

Nope, promote someone to just do this ... duh