Developer Rules Update

[Zoinx]

As an end-user, I have paid close attention to these recent changes, and the reaction of some of the devs, because as an end-user, IMO it affects me as much as anyone.

I'm not going to add who's opinions I agree with, or who's side I'm on....primarily because I'm not a developer...so I'll leave the discussion regarding development and all that entails to the qualified people.

What I will add however, is that IMHO, the real losers here are end-users like me.

With talented devs pulling their projects due to their unhappiness with the new changes, and the HB powers that be firm in their stance, the community as a whole is the real loser.

And that's just sad.

Again...just my 2cents.

Don't worry, teams like Venus's are pulling their code to help end-users such as yourself! They don't want you to have forums cluttered with multiple options that use code from their projects to make something better. They are saving you the hassle of having to test out 5-6 different CC's till you find the one you really like. They are the true heroes doing you a service here.

 

[Krizid]

This getting ridiculous. If the authors that are pissed just take a step back and realize that all your hard work is not lost. it will only continue to get better if you stop caring about your own CC/Profile.

Bobby's ShamWOW is a good example. its almost perfect. do people go around and mess with it and re-release ShamWOW? NO. He actually is friendly to everyone even the NOOBS that repeatedly ask the same questions over and over.

I understand everyone is different, we all have deifferent ways to deal with problems. But what you are doing does not further help the community. Your hard work is acknowledged by 90% of the community here. there's always going to be that 10% of douches ripping people's work. but hey dont let those 10% ruin the 90% that love your work.

Don't get so defensive, rule just changed. give it a month before you start boycotting the HB forums.

[h=1]“Wherever there is possession of marks, there is fraud ; wherever there is no-possession of no-marks, there is no fraud. Hence the Tathagata is to be seen from no-marks as marks.”[/h](Hindu Prince Gautama Siddharta, the founder of Buddhism, 563-483 B.C.)

 

[kayes]

What I will add however, is that IMHO, the real losers here are end-users like me.

With talented devs pulling their projects due to their unhappiness with the new changes, and the HB powers that be firm in their stance, the community as a whole is the real loser.

And that's just sad.

Again...just my 2cents.

New dev's will replace them. No problem.

 

[Kroniq]

It is unfortunate that this change is turning into such a large issue.

Kasia, i as an end user find the way you are dealing with these developers leaving to be appalling and unethhical. If they do not like the rule change i feel they should have the right to remove previously released work and this should be accepted and respected even if not enforced by the admin team. They have put in many many hours for the most part to bring us a good product and your basically slapping them in the face and turning them off of developing for ungrateful end users.

That being said i find it a bit absurd that developers are preemptively removing their entire collections from the forums before seeing how this plays out although i do respect their right to do so. If someone copies 99% of your cc then reposts it here they will be called out and ridiculed by the community for the theives/fraudsters/copycats they are and the true devs will still have the reputation and prestige they deserve.


On a side note i'm kinda waiting to see how long it will take for someone who purchased Vanguard to post it here now and just give credit. I'm really torn on how i feel about people releasing pay only cc's outside these forums.

 

[romantic179]

Admins just change the rules to the like of the devs. I mean it is there intellectual property so they have all the rights at it.

We, as the endusers are the loosers in this situation.

Just change the rules.

 

[Krizid]

Admins just change the rules to the like of the devs. I mean it is there intellectual property so they have all the rights at it.

We, as the endusers are the loosers in this situation.

Just change the rules.

What HB devs is trying to do is create a better community. Weather the storm for now. it will only get better. NOT ALL CC/profile authors are against this rule change. so just look around and you'll find some of the best authors still around and supporting.

 

[kayes]

Admins just change the rules to the like of the devs. I mean it is there intellectual property so they have all the rights at it.

We, as the endusers are the loosers in this situation.

Just change the rules.

You are wrong, we are gaining in this situations.

Dev's have startet to charge for something that should be free. With HighVoltz as a dev for Singular, bobby's shamwow and Wulf's Lazyrider CC's we are all good. The dev's who refuse to adapt will eventualy get replaced by others.

Im just glad this happend before I got an offer on my accounts so I know who I will send my donations too when it is sold. (selling everything I got for about 700$)

 

[HB6464D67]

As an end-user, I do like seeing variety. Although, I LOVE seeing a CC as complete as ShamWOW. So, I see the merits of both sides. Maybe a better balanced rule would simply be: All modded code MUST include originating base project name in the title. If "Y" is modded, and "X" is original project, acceptable format would be "Y CC - a movement-improved X CC"

 

[fiftypence]

Here's my take on this newest change as a CC developer.

I consider coding an art form. I code for personal enjoyment, challenge, and satisfaction -- I do not do it for the public praise or for monetary reward. I do it because I love coding and I love the challenge of writing functional and eloquent code. Naturally, I consider the code I write to be my own property. I am a great believer of code reuse and actively support many open source projects. Above all, though, I feel that every author should ultimately have the choice of if, where, and how their code is used or reused. From a purely idealistic point of view, it is irrelevant which public API I use to complete my work; the work still belongs to me. I feel that I should have to right to allow or disallow public modifications to my code without policing by the HB developer team. The legality of this is entirely beside the point and a silly thing to debate.

Before I continue, I would like to outline my opinion on modified code as it is right now. I have absolutely no issues with people modifying my code for private use and, in fact, I encourage people to do so. If an individual sends me a polite message asking to reuse a portion of my code, or perhaps even the entire framework I have built, in most cases I will allow it. I typically enquire about the project they intend to work on first, and occasionally I may wish to see the code before it is released. If I feel the project is not up to my standards I will not allow it to be publicly released. Also, if the code I am sent shows very minimal modifications, for example a few spell names have been changed, I will also disallow it. In the majority of cases, though, I freely allow my code to be reused, to assist others in turning their vision to reality, and releasing that vision to the community. Many CC developers have, at one point, reused code from me, and I have no issue with that.

I do have an issue with losing my right of choice. If I have no say in the matter, frankly I will most certainly discontinue my projects and perhaps seek alternate means of distribution, e.g. other popular websites, or perhaps investigate the route mastagh took and commercialise my product. I do not think it is at all fair to force this licence change upon the community and I strongly oppose it.

There have certainly been good arguments raised in favour of this change. One that I have seen repeated many times throughout this thread is that this change will allow the original author of the code to merge the modified code and ultimately make improvements their original project. I disagree with this. I hold myself to very high standards and I hold others to these standards, too. The majority of code I have seen modified does not meet my standards. It would take me longer to thoroughly test and improve code contributed by others than it would to properly implement the same features myself. It is not a case of the code "just working." I do not want code that "just works", and I'd wager that many seasoned developers would agree with me on this point.

One must consider how to treat developers in this community. It goes without saying that developers are a great boon to all of us. Developers work tirelessly to release quality products for free. Developers often add features that they themselves have no use for, just to improve the life of the end user. Developers facilitate a great range of choice for end users. Developers do all of this for their own reasons -- some for entertainment, others for praise or money. I see no issue with that. A developer is entirely within his rights to code for praise if he wishes to do so. It is unjust to rob him of this by allowing anybody to take his hard work, modify a line or two, and release it as their own. If a developer wants to allow that, great, more power to him -- but he should not be forced to do so. Is it really fair to treat a developer in such a way?

I am sure many of you know swiny (I mention him only because he is the first name to come to mind). Personally I dislike him; I believe he is very arrogant. But he produces quality work that improves the quality of life for very many Honorbuddy users. He should have the right to do whatever he wishes with his code, whether that be to share it, horde it, sell it, or fuck it. It is irrelevant what he does with it. The code is his. This goes for every single developer out there who works hard, creating and maintaining quality projects that ultimately benefit the end user.

Their work; their toil; their code; their choice.

Sorry for the wall of text!

edit: thought I'd mention that I think it is abhorrent how developers who choose to remove their work from the forums are being treated in this post. It is their code and they have every right to do so. Some people have no idea of how stressful maintaining a large project is and how much time it takes up. You should be showering these developers with support and thanking them for their hard work, not crucifying them. Shame on you.

 

[romantic179]

You are wrong, we are gaining in this situations.

Dev's have startet to charge for something that should be free. With HighVoltz as a dev for Singular, bobby's shamwow and Wulf's Lazyrider CC's we are all good. The dev's who refuse to adapt will eventualy get replaced by others.

Im just glad this happend before I got an offer on my accounts so I know who I will send my donations too when it is sold. (selling everything I got for about 700$)

mhh okey i was wrong dindt see that from that standpoint. Thx Mate

 

[Zoinx]

I feel that I should have to right to allow or disallow public modifications to my code without policing by the HB developer team. The legality of this is entirely beside the point and a silly thing to debate.

Ding ding ding! There is the key word, "POLICING".

If you read back, Hawker says exactly why they had to change this rule. The only person he pointed out by name was "swiny", but he stated there were others, that continuously PMed the Moderators, then jumped them and directly PMed Bossland about people stealing code and not asking. They wanted swift justice! Well, all those reports add up and take time away from running the admin side of the house (Bosslands with all the finances or w/e he does and all the HB developers actually fixing bugs and adding new features).

The reason this was instituted was so HB staff would not have to POLICE the forums for stolen code.

 

[Hawker]

...snip...
Before I continue, I would like to outline my opinion on modified code as it is right now. I have absolutely no issues with people modifying my code for private use and, in fact, I encourage people to do so. If an individual sends me a polite message asking to reuse a portion of my code, or perhaps even the entire framework I have built, in most cases I will allow it. I typically enquire about the project they intend to work on first, and occasionally I may wish to see the code before it is released. If I feel the project is not up to my standards I will not allow it to be publicly released. Also, if the code I am sent shows very minimal modifications, for example a few spell names have been changed, I will also disallow it. In the majority of cases, though, I freely allow my code to be reused, to assist others in turning their vision to reality, and releasing that vision to the community. Many CC developers have, at one point, reused code from me, and I have no issue with that.

I do have an issue with losing my right of choice. If I have no say in the matter, frankly I will most certainly discontinue my projects and perhaps seek alternate means of distribution, e.g. other popular websites, or perhaps investigate the route mastagh took and commercialise my product. I do not think it is at all fair to force this licence change upon the community and I strongly oppose it....snip...

As far as I know, you have already been using the BSD license for your All in One cc. The rule change has no affect on you.

 

[fiftypence]

Ding ding ding! There is the key word, "POLICING".

If you read back, Hawker says exactly why they had to change this rule. The only person he pointed out by name was "swiny", but he stated there were others, that continuously PMed the Moderators, then jumped them and directly PMed Bossland about people stealing code and not asking. They wanted swift justice! Well, all those reports add up and take time away from running the admin side of the house (Bosslands with all the finances or w/e he does and all the HB developers actually fixing bugs and adding new features).

The reason this was instituted was so HB staff would not have to POLICE the forums for stolen code.

Do you really think the solution to stolen code is to allow people to steal code? I think that is an absurd notion. It sucks that the Honorbuddy forum team have this additional workload of checking for stolen content, it really does, but them's the breaks when you rely on your community to provide a huge amount of functionality for your bot. Hire an additional staff member to police the forums. Sorted.

As far as I know, you have already been using the BSD license for your All in One cc. The rule change has no affect on you.

You're right, this rule change doesn't change anything with my project. I'm protesting on principle.

 

[SpigotStyle]

One must consider how to treat developers in this community. It goes without saying that developers are a great boon to all of us. Developers work tirelessly to release quality products for free. Developers often add features that they themselves have no use for, just to improve the life of the end user. Developers facilitate a great range of choice for end users. Developers do all of this for their own reasons -- some for entertainment, others for praise or money. I see no issue with that. A developer is entirely within his rights to code for praise if he wishes to do so. It is unjust to rob him of this by allowing anybody to take his hard work, modify a line or two, and release it as their own. If a developer wants to allow that, great, more power to him -- but he should not be forced to do so. Is it really fair to treat a developer in such a way?

I am sure many of you know swiny (I mention him only because he is the first name to come to mind). Personally I dislike him; I believe he is very arrogant. But he produces quality work that improves the quality of life for very many Honorbuddy users. He should have the right to do whatever he wishes with his code, whether that be to share it, horde it, sell it, or fuck it. It is irrelevant what he does with it. The code is his. This goes for every single developer out there who works hard, creating and maintaining quality projects that ultimately benefit the end user.



edit: thought I'd mention that I think it is abhorrent how people are treating developers who choose to remove their work from this forum. It is their code and they have every right to do so. Some people have no idea of how stressful maintaining a large project is and how much time it takes up. You should be showering these developers with support, not crucifying them. Shame on you.

This. I was going to reply to your "How the community treats developers" portion with my own on how the developers treat the community, but you kinda singled out the developer I had in mind with that last paragraph. I completely support the right of the Devs to take down their work and choose where, if anywhere, it is posted. However, the particular mentioned Dev's attitude toward the end users about half way though this thread have no place in this discussion.

Be a part of this community, or don't; but don't treat others like a dick just because you have a chip on your shoulder with your work. I am sure you could outcode the majority of this community, (I farking suck, but at least I am trying to learn), but I guarantee that everyone (well, nearly everyone) else here is better in their respective fields but don't flaunt that at you.

Venus and others: Sad to see you go. I hope the developers that chose to remove their code don't disappear too far from the community, as your expertise in class-writing is needed.

To the dude who said he is going to release everything just because he can: Go back to /b/. Just because you are on the internet does not give you a license to be a f*ckwit. Grow up, put on some bigboy pants, and stop trying to take the issues you have with your inadequate life out on others just because you can do so anonymously.

 

[Hawker]

Do you really think the solution to stolen code is to allow people to steal code? I think that is an absurd notion. It sucks that the Honorbuddy forum team have this additional workload of checking for stolen content, it really does, but them's the breaks when you rely on your community to provide a huge amount of functionality for your bot. Hire an additional staff member to police the forums. Sorted.



You're right, this rule change doesn't change anything with my project. I'm protesting on principle.

As long as we are agreed that the rule change had no effect whatsoever on your projects, thats fine. Meanwhile, if you see code being stolen let me know. I won't allow that.

 

[weischbier]

As long as we are agreed that the rule change had no effect whatsoever on your projects, thats fine. Meanwhile, if you see code being stolen let me know. I won't allow that.

There are no more stolen codes here or am I wrong?
Just write " Credit to fiftypence for using the letter b in his project" and all is good.

greetz

Weischbier

 

[Hawker]

There are no more stolen codes here or am I wrong?
Just write " Credit to fiftypence for using the letter b in his project" and all is good.

greetz

Weischbier

Well if something was never released here and never abandoned and was not under a license that allowed it to be re-used, that would not be good. From what I see, there are no projects like that but the principle matters.

 

[Zoinx]

Hire an additional staff member to police the forums. Sorted.

You're absolutely right! Because HB has the money to hire a person solely to look for stolen code. While were add it, since it's obviously so easy, lets hire 10 new core developers to make HB production faster!

 

[white_boy8869]

I do not develop, but I just wanted to say that I (as a user and faithful subscriber) do not agree with the open policy.
I do think it is dumb for people to be so nit picky about their works.
Difference between. Your project and someone else's is that you will update yours as the new publisher more than likely will not.
I know who here I follow and trust to allow me to be a safer bot ie. kickazz and those whose projects have been abandoned like fpsware. Both are good coders but I will choose kickazz products before I even go near fps as of late due to exp and what I see thread and product wise.
This is important for all developers in the aspect that people learn to trust the name like craftsmen tools, name brand trusted for life.
Swiny and his now pay to get profile gen. I will now no longer support his work bc I don't agree with his methods and I still have he old generator do why would I pay for update for it?

/ end rant of user based information
I think everyone here understands we are a community of botters or as some call is cheaters. We need to stick together and support eachother an respect everyone's work.

Admins please do not allow the copying of the developers work.

 

[Zoinx]

Difference between. Your project and someone else's is that you will update yours as the new publisher more than likely will not.

Which means all you do is simply report the thread and it will be archived if not keep updated. Sooooo, who's getting hurt here?