[PAID] #DeathKnight

[Poptarts]

So I got 32K at ilvl 680 on Tectus LFR.. I am not sure how to use simulacraft to simulate an exact boss fight. If I look on warcraft logs see similar geared DK's in unholy hit 59k... I realize that's not the norm.. but is 32K good for my ilvl?

The top parses are usually rigged ones and they're done on significantly longer lasting difficulties. Also, that was also more than likely pre-nerf Blood Boil. Your damage is going to depend on the duration and execution of the fight and LFR isn't really the best place for that, can't judge anything off of LFR as you rarely pre-army, pre-pot, stuff is tanked horribly, dies fast, etc. 32k for your gear would be a bit low for a proper heroic pull of Tectus, though. You'd probably want to be doing 34-35k under a normal pull.

What about defile usage? How is it?

Defile is going to likely be the same between all CR's. It will drop it on cooldown under the boss unless done manually.

It having an on/off toggle is one of the few things I think that I'd like to have in this CR.

I have a question for the author: under the circumstances of your CR do you suggest Blood Tap or Runic Corruption for Unholy? I know Blood Tap edges out RC by a little bit if done up properly and I'm just wondering if it suits the nature of the automation.

My only real concern I've seen with the bot in my use so far is that it occasionally sits on runes longer than it seems like it should be, but that may be an issue of being GCD capped, it's def a feeling of disconnect trying to judge that while not actually pressing the buttons.

 

[tolraucion]

It having an on/off toggle is one of the few things I think that I'd like to have in this CR.

I have a question for the author: under the circumstances of your CR do you suggest Blood Tap or Runic Corruption for Unholy? I know Blood Tap edges out RC by a little bit if done up properly and I'm just wondering if it suits the nature of the automation.

My only real concern I've seen with the bot in my use so far is that it occasionally sits on runes longer than it seems like it should be, but that may be an issue of being GCD capped, it's def a feeling of disconnect trying to judge that while not actually pressing the buttons.

I am looking at how to solve auto Defile in a better way than adding a simple toggle. Turning off a "bad" feature doesn't fix the feature, and I'd rather auto Defile be the norm so it needs some work.

As for Runic Corruption or Blood Tap, I haven't noticed either being a problem. I will say that if you're going to use Necrotic Plague, then you should use Runic Corruption. Other than that I don't think it matters. I have seen a very very small number of times when it holds runes and I'm not sure why, but it's something I am actively watching. It shouldn't influence your gameplay 99% of the time.

 

[geo]

best use of defile is on tuanhas. having it on keybind and being placed on mouseover is the best solution for max dps and not looking silly/bottish.

 

[tolraucion]

best use of defile is on tuanhas. having it on keybind and being placed on mouseover is the best solution for max dps and not looking silly/bottish.

This is actually not true, that may be the best there is currently available, but that is by no means "optimum". It still allows for very large human error.

 

[geo]

so you re saying you can make the bot know when adds spawn to reserve defile for 3-5 secs more, or to make it cast it between targets so it reaches more targets?
even if you could , you would be better off spending this time coding other stuff

 

[Poptarts]

This is actually not true, that may be the best there is currently available, but that is by no means "optimum". It still allows for very large human error.

so you re saying you can make the bot know when adds spawn to reserve defile for 3-5 secs more, or to make it cast it between targets so it reaches more targets?
even if you could , you would be better off spending this time coding other stuff

I really respect the dedication towards the simplicity and control of the routine, that is a great attitude. Still, there are so many variables in encounters and the way different tanks move things so it seems really difficult. At most just making it so the bot doesn't hurl defile on the ground while both you and the boss are actively moving would make it superior to all other CRs I've tried for Death Knight but the fact that it's never been done makes me assume it's a lot of work.

Since we're on the subject of cooldowns, though. One nice addition would be trinket usage as an option since a lot of DKs are scabbard users.

 

[Wannbe]

Whats does the High TPS Key do?

 

[Day7]

Whats does the High TPS Key do?

If you mean threat it's for when you absolutely need to spam every and all threat generating abilities to pull insane threat

otherwise maybe it means ticks per second lol

 

[Poptarts]

Having some issues with the bot not properly using the NecroBlight build. Doesn't want to keep Necrotic Plague up in add heavy situations, seems to prefer to spam Blood Boil. ahead of maintaining it and losing a 15 stack of NP with no UB up is really bad.

NecroBlight is our 99% of the time build in 6.1 so I hope it can be fixed.

 

[tolraucion]

Having some issues with the bot not properly using the NecroBlight build. Doesn't want to keep Necrotic Plague up in add heavy situations, seems to prefer to spam Blood Boil. ahead of maintaining it and losing a 15 stack of NP with no UB up is really bad.

NecroBlight is our 99% of the time build in 6.1 so I hope it can be fixed.

If you want it to keep up NP instead of Blood Boil then you need to disable AoE. Keeping up a 15 stack of NP is not optimum damage in high add situations.

 

[Poptarts]

If you want it to keep up NP instead of Blood Boil then you need to disable AoE. Keeping up a 15 stack of NP is not optimum damage in high add situations.

Not quite correct, the goal of Necroblight is to build stacks with Unholy Blight and then maintain them until Unholy Blight is off CD and can "instantly" refresh them. Not having full stacks of Necrotic Plague is absolutely a DPS loss and invalidates the spec.

I sadly pull substantially lower DPS with this routine on Necroblight than if I just played manually. There's no real point to putting the routine to single target as all that really changes is that it doesn't utilize Unholy Blight, it still lets the stacks fall off without fail every time well before UB has finished it's cooldown, it simply doesn't allocate any additional runes to maintain it. I'm in the upper gear levels with a glut of haste, as well, so I'm getting more runes than a lot of people.

Single target prio from Skullflower's guide:

The Necroticblight playstyle revolves around extending the duration of NP to match or exceed the cooldown time remaining on Unholy Blight. With normal Festering Strike usage and average haste rating, you will only need to cast 1-2 additional FeS on death runes. To avoid extending NP excessively, you should wait until the disease is within 10 seconds from expiring to consider using death runes on FeS. While under the effects of heroism/bloodlust, you do not need to worry about extending NP.

AoE prio from Skullflower's guide:

The Necroticblight AoE playstyle revolves around extending the duration of NP to match or exceed the cooldown time remaining on Unholy Blight by weaving in Festering Strikes into your Blood Boil usage. For example, you would Blood Boil x2 + Festering Strike x1 or you could extend NP before you begin your Blood Boil spam (i.e. adds are going to spawn in 10 seconds, so you would spend what runes you have on FeS).

If you're not running proper maintenance on it, there's just no real point to running Necrotic considering it starts off weaker than standard FF and BP until it's build up to higher stacks.

Here is a more elaborate guide and breakdown (although it's actually a little roughly written on the eyes, to me anyway) from the Icyveins forum that got a sticky promotion recently:

Demonardvark's Unholy DK Necroblight Guide - Death Knight - Icy Veins Forums

 

[tolraucion]

Not quite correct, the goal of Necroblight is to build stacks with Unholy Blight and then maintain them until Unholy Blight is off CD and can "instantly" refresh them. Not having full stacks of Necrotic Plague is absolutely a DPS loss and invalidates the spec...

Thanks for the info, I did some more research and currently #DeathKnight is not including Ebon Plaguebringer into it's calculations of disease damage. This causes FS to be a massive damage loss over 2x SS. I have a fix in the works but it'll take a few days to be approved on the store.

With that being said, BB is still king on high target AoE. There is just no way that NP can come close to it. A single NP tick hits for less than a raw BB hit. This doesn't include any of the necrosis damage that will catapult BB even further ahead. Again, if you want #DeathKNight to keep NP at 15 stacks (which it will do after the next version goes live) then you'll need to disable AoE.

For a more mathy reason as to why BB is better than FS on AoE:
FS: 16123
BB: 6154
NP: 5112
Necrosis (Ne): 1027
MS%: 20.39%
N: Targets

FS + (MS%*2*Ne) + NP*2*N has to be greater than (BB + (MS%*2*Ne))*2*N

Targets    FS        BB
1          26,765    13,145
2          36,989    26,291
3          47,213    39,436
4          57,437    52,582
5          67,661    65,728
6          77,885    78,873
7          88,109    92,019
8          98,333    105,164

As you can see, once you pass 5 targets, BB becomes the highest damage option.

With all that in mind, once the new version of #DeathKnight goes live, it will do a weave rotation, where it keeps up NP and only uses BB when it doesn't need to extend it. This will, however, only be the case below the threshold. Once it exceeds this threshold, it'll spam the hell out of BB for max damage. I believe this will give you behavior you're looking for. It also does something similar with SS on single target.

 

[Poptarts]

It's not about spamming FeS, though, you should only need a few death rune fueled ones, 1-2~ depending on haste rating, the other ones involve dumping your frost runes with the blood.

It's essentially about making it over the finish line to UB's cooldown, at which point you let it expire then repop it. Single target or multi target, doesn't matter, UB is more or less used on cooldown. Nothing competes with NP's damage in 6.1 on multi target. It's to the extent that our primary substat swaps from Multi to Mastery.

I'm not as good at debating the math, just the mechanics that I know. Skullflower is like... the patron saint of our class though. Guy wrote our main guide, does all of our high end sims and raids with one of the best guilds out there. So when he says:

While using Necrotic Plague, you should employ a special case Festering Strike usage that depends on the duration of your Necrotic Plague and the cooldown time remaining on Unholy Blight. If the disease is going to fall off before Unholy Blight’s cooldown is up, you should spend death runes on Festering Strike to keep NP ticking at 15 stacks. Under Heroism/Bloodlust, you shouldn’t have to cast any additional Festering Strikes. Outside of that, you should expect to cast 1-3 additional FeS. While AoEing, weave in Festering Strikes inbetween your Blood Boil usage. Never let NP fall off if Unholy Blight’s cooldown is not up.

I just really buy into it.

You seem a lot more savvy on the internals than me though, maybe if some of the sims and their details help, here is our UB/NP - Mastery based profile for 6.1 Simcraft.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/mqiim391me8s4i9/AAAKiTswjTrLTvjMj-3pMOhna/UB_NP_Mastery.simc?dl=0

https://docs.google.com/document/d/...migO8/preview?sle=true#heading=h.fk4xb4twvmfq

 

[tolraucion]

It's not about spamming FeS, though, you should only need a few death rune fueled ones, 1-2~ depending on haste rating, the other ones involve dumping your frost runes with the blood.

It's essentially about making it over the finish line to UB's cooldown, at which point you let it expire then repop it. Single target or multi target, doesn't matter, UB is more or less used on cooldown. Nothing competes with NP's damage in 6.1 on multi target. It's to the extent that our primary substat swaps from Multi to Mastery.

I'm not as good at debating the math, just the mechanics that I know. Skullflower is like... the patron saint of our class though. Guy wrote our main guide, does all of our high end sims and raids with one of the best guilds out there.

You seem a lot more savvy on the internals than me though, maybe if some of the sims and their details help, here is our UB/NP - Mastery based profile for 6.1 Simcraft.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/mqiim391me8s4i9/AAAKiTswjTrLTvjMj-3pMOhna/UB_NP_Mastery.simc?dl=0

Again, thanks for the info! Once 6.1 drops that 6 target breakpoint will move to something like 10 or 12 which means you'll almost never see it. I am working on adding UB to the FeS calculations. I think it works, but I need to do more testing. In the next few days this will be working near perfectly.

 

[Poptarts]

Thank you for being so open to communication, it's quite refreshing. If it helps testing at all, here is the optimal Necroblight rotation in Weak Auras, it was made fairly recently and it is growing quite popular:

Redfella's Unholy Necroticblight WeakAuras - Death Knight - Icy Veins Forums

It only covers single target but as the post-nerf BB threshold is 4+ targets, it's not hard to simply sub in BB's for scourge strike pops off of those auras.

I used the routine last night in BrF which prompted my posting, off of Thogar I gained about 6-7k~ DPS going manual with these auras as opposed to the routine. The handful of extra Blood Boils/Scourge Strikes the routine elected for could not make up for letting Necro fall off, especially when adds would jump out and would die prior to full stacks even building up.

Tested again after on a two-dummy cleave outside of the raid to test in a BB-less environment. In this case, going manual with auras made for a 2-2.5k increase over the routine.

As the routine is noticeably more efficient in reaction and standard presses than me though, it'd be really incredible to see tuned up just right. I can't even imagine how much it could pop out in 6.1.

 

[b3rz3rk]

Out of curiosity, what talents are you using on UH, tolraucion?

 

[geo]

Thank you for being so open to communication, it's quite refreshing. If it helps testing at all, here is the optimal Necroblight rotation in Weak Auras, it was made fairly recently and it is growing quite popular:

Redfella's Unholy Necroticblight WeakAuras - Death Knight - Icy Veins Forums

It only covers single target but as the post-nerf BB threshold is 4+ targets, it's not hard to simply sub in BB's for scourge strike pops off of those auras.

I used the routine last night in BrF which prompted my posting, off of Thogar I gained about 6-7k~ DPS going manual with these auras as opposed to the routine. The handful of extra Blood Boils/Scourge Strikes the routine elected for could not make up for letting Necro fall off, especially when adds would jump out and would die prior to full stacks even building up.

Tested again after on a two-dummy cleave outside of the raid to test in a BB-less environment. In this case, going manual with auras made for a 2-2.5k increase over the routine.

As the routine is noticeably more efficient in reaction and standard presses than me though, it'd be really incredible to see tuned up just right. I can't even imagine how much it could pop out in 6.1.

thats the point, you can either make it go for max dps on dummy which will be pretty low during raiding enviroment, or check the raid fights and aim for the most dps you can squeeze in raids, raids that you have to move away from boss, raids that the bot doesnt know when adds spawn and how long they stay alive.

necroblight rotation is very handy for combat routine and you should take advantage of it.

 

[Poptarts]

thats the point, you can either make it go for max dps on dummy which will be pretty low during raiding enviroment, or check the raid fights and aim for the most dps you can squeeze in raids, raids that you have to move away from boss, raids that the bot doesnt know when adds spawn and how long they stay alive.

necroblight rotation is very handy for combat routine and you should take advantage of it.

There isn't a point to be made, really. We had already discussed this and what I posted was for additional feedback. As noted the current routine doesn't quite run proper maintenance on Necrotic Plague. Considering the spec (Necroblight) is essentially foolproof outside of said maintenance, it will do perfectly fine once tweaked up some as the routine is otherwise fabulous. There's essentially no bearing on the actual encounter considering Necrotic Plague is essentially permanently applied and automatically spreads. It's a big part of the reason people pushed for it to become the new norm over Defile, which is just a terrible talent for DPS outside of simulations.

Back on the subject, I'm starting to feel that a small part of the problem may be that the tuning for Blood Boil tuning might be a tad off. Was goofing around in a little pug earlier and I noticed it was spamming it on 3 targets. After the early Jan. 33% nerf to Blood Boil and buffs to SS/FeS, literally every single theorycraft, sim, guide and general poster has pegged our BB AoE rotation, outside of DoT spread (although this wouldn't affect NP), to begin at 4 targets. (although pre-jan hotfixes it began at 2 so I'm not sure where the numbers could be off)

 

[tolraucion]

There isn't a point to be made, really. We had already discussed this and what I posted was for additional feedback. As noted the current routine doesn't quite run proper maintenance on Necrotic Plague. Considering the spec (Necroblight) is essentially foolproof outside of said maintenance, it will do perfectly fine once tweaked up some as the routine is otherwise fabulous. There's essentially no bearing on the actual encounter considering Necrotic Plague is essentially permanently applied and automatically spreads. It's a big part of the reason people pushed for it to become the new norm over Defile, which is just a terrible talent for DPS outside of simulations.

Back on the subject, I'm starting to feel that a small part of the problem may be that the tuning for Blood Boil tuning might be a tad off. Was goofing around in a little pug earlier and I noticed it was spamming it on 3 targets. After the early Jan. 33% nerf to Blood Boil and buffs to SS/FeS, literally every single theorycraft, sim, guide and general poster has pegged our BB AoE rotation, outside of DoT spread (although this wouldn't affect NP), to begin at 4 targets. (although pre-jan hotfixes it began at 2 so I'm not sure where the numbers could be off)

BB's breakpoint changes based on the level of mastery you have. Basically, it changes to BB being more optimal when (BB + Ne) * N is higher than (SS + Ne) * N which is 3 most of the time in raid level gear.

As for NecroBlight, I tested my changes last night on a single target dummy and I'm getting close to what my Defile build is doing. This is clearly a much stronger way to play NP, and with the 6.1 changes will be amazing. I'll probably run this style in my next raid on Friday. I'll be starting the approval process for the next version today, so look for NecroBlight in the next few days ^_^

 

[Poptarts]

BB's breakpoint changes based on the level of mastery you have. Basically, it changes to BB being more optimal when (BB + Ne) * N is higher than (SS + Ne) * N which for some characters is 3 most of the time in raid level gear.

As for NecroBlight, I tested my changes last night on a single target dummy and I'm getting close to what my Defile build is doing. This is clearly a much stronger way to play NP, and with the 6.1 changes will be amazing. I'll probably run this style in my next raid on Friday. I'll be starting the approval process for the next version today, so look for NecroBlight in the next few days ^_^

Looking forward to it.

I feel you're a bit off on Blood Boil though, now that I'm going over my logs. On literally every boss from last week it should have taken four targets for Blood Boil to start surpassing Scourge Strike.

Here's a random boss example, it's close to the norm from the whole evening:

Blood Boil - Avg Dmg - 3991 x 3 = 11973

Scourge Strike: Shadow - Avg Dmg - 7503+
Scourge Strike: Physical - Avg Dmg 6790 = 14293

On some attempts it should have actually been 5, actually. I feel that 4 is pretty much universal as people say but it can creep to 5 with random chance and lower mastery (Highmaul was decked in haste)

For clarification, I am ilvl 672

My assumption is that you may have made the same mistake I did at first: discounting the dual strike nature of Scourge Strike. Most logs just parse the way it attacks as two separate hits per cast as opposed to showing it as one or showing both components. Skada, for example, I believe shows each strike as just two separate ones.

Glancing over everything im now also noticing Necrosis mentions pestilence, which was rolled into blood boil but not blood boil itself. good times with Blizzard tooltips.