Why can we not compare routines?
- Thread starter Dkding
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Mirabis
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Just wondering why this isn't aloud?... Surely it would make cr developers push even more if they saw routine B pushing more dps/hps then theirs?
No hate please it's just a genuine question
I don't think it's wrong to compare the routines, but mostly in the wrong place.
People would come on ur thread and say stuff like:
- Hey please fix this. using Tuanha now, 5k more dps.
Without specifying what, how and when they used the routine. This could possibly shy users away without good background information.
Either way I believe the thread rules / deletions are done because the chat belongs in the Combat Routines Discussion category ?
chinajade
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Hi, Dkding,
The first dimension...
If a particular product falls short, you should be able to provide feedback the author can act on. You should easily be able to do this without comparing to other products. Each product is unique, and may take a different approaches to the same problem. So, describing what you want in terms of another product is not meaningful feedback.
For instance, Singular handles a lot of boundary conditions that most other CRs fail to address. This handling of boundary conditions may cause a small loss in DPS for Singular, but it prevents a myriad of problems that are encountered in the PvE world. Comparing Singular to any other combat routine is almost meaningless for all practical purposes.
With PvP combat routines, some may be prepared to do battlefield analysis, threat assessment, and crowd control. While the more simple ones go straight for maximum DPS. Again, these two types of routines cannot be meaningfully compared.
The second dimension to product comparisons...
Fanboi's will immediately jump in with their typical 'contributions'. This usually rapidly degrades into insults, flames, and causes posts to be deleted and threads to be locked. As moderators, we see this happen time-and-time again. The blanket rule of 'no comparisons' shuts down this useless trolling before it even starts.
The "no comparison" rule is not something the Moderation team will consider relaxing. So, if you've feedback to give, do so without comparing to other products please—its not difficult to do.
If you find yourself attempting to compare to other products...
You probably just want to use the 'other product', instead. As, you obviously feel it is superior in what you deem important. There will never be a 'best' CR that can do it all. Again, this is a consequence of design decisions made for the individual products. Each design decision that creates a 'strength' for a particular product also introduces weaknesses somewhere else. This is the fundamental nature of design. You should embrace those decisions, and help the author improve them in the context of the strengths of the existing product.
cheers,
chinajade
The first dimension...
If a particular product falls short, you should be able to provide feedback the author can act on. You should easily be able to do this without comparing to other products. Each product is unique, and may take a different approaches to the same problem. So, describing what you want in terms of another product is not meaningful feedback.
For instance, Singular handles a lot of boundary conditions that most other CRs fail to address. This handling of boundary conditions may cause a small loss in DPS for Singular, but it prevents a myriad of problems that are encountered in the PvE world. Comparing Singular to any other combat routine is almost meaningless for all practical purposes.
With PvP combat routines, some may be prepared to do battlefield analysis, threat assessment, and crowd control. While the more simple ones go straight for maximum DPS. Again, these two types of routines cannot be meaningfully compared.
The second dimension to product comparisons...
Fanboi's will immediately jump in with their typical 'contributions'. This usually rapidly degrades into insults, flames, and causes posts to be deleted and threads to be locked. As moderators, we see this happen time-and-time again. The blanket rule of 'no comparisons' shuts down this useless trolling before it even starts.
The "no comparison" rule is not something the Moderation team will consider relaxing. So, if you've feedback to give, do so without comparing to other products please—its not difficult to do.
If you find yourself attempting to compare to other products...
You probably just want to use the 'other product', instead. As, you obviously feel it is superior in what you deem important. There will never be a 'best' CR that can do it all. Again, this is a consequence of design decisions made for the individual products. Each design decision that creates a 'strength' for a particular product also introduces weaknesses somewhere else. This is the fundamental nature of design. You should embrace those decisions, and help the author improve them in the context of the strengths of the existing product.
cheers,
chinajade
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I guess it comes always down to how you compare two or more products, if you go on a thread and say something like 'lol don't use this shitty routine, i use XYZ and it parses 2k more dps' two things will happen.
Some people may believe you and don't use the routine you are flaming, the result here is : less feedback provided for the creator, how can he fix his bugs or parse the same dps if noone is telling him why it performs not as good as XYZ in specific situations.
The other thing is, the creator may feel insulted, feedback like that isn't helpful at all.
On the other Hand chinajade described it pretty well, you always have to consider which decisions did the creator make in particular situations?
Small example:
RogueRoutine 1: Creator want's to maximize dps in AoE, so he has a condition as simple as this if an AoE situation : If more than two enemies around us , use Bladeflurry.
RogueRoutine 2: Creator put a bit more thought into this, he knows he could parse more dps, but he thinks, hey, maybe there is a cc'ed unit near? He checks this and wont use Bladeflurry if this is the case.
For you it may looks like Rountine1 parses more DpS in a situation like this, because you don't recognize the cc break..
There are tons of Situations like this where the approaches of Routinecreators are different.
Other thing is, to really compare two routines you would have to make sure you use the same settings for both, which some don't even provide.. sure you now could say XYZ is better than ABC because it's offers more settings.
and believe me, with feedback like that no author will be mad at you for comparing, because if you are actually telling him WHY a particular product is better than his, he can and (I'm almost sure everyone would) will improve his product.
if you can't compare two products without telling why A is better than B your feedback will get no attention.
Hell if you can't compare the products without mentioning the name of the other product you can always decide to write a PM instead of in the thread, but please make sure your feedback is actually useful.
Some people may believe you and don't use the routine you are flaming, the result here is : less feedback provided for the creator, how can he fix his bugs or parse the same dps if noone is telling him why it performs not as good as XYZ in specific situations.
The other thing is, the creator may feel insulted, feedback like that isn't helpful at all.
On the other Hand chinajade described it pretty well, you always have to consider which decisions did the creator make in particular situations?
Small example:
RogueRoutine 1: Creator want's to maximize dps in AoE, so he has a condition as simple as this if an AoE situation : If more than two enemies around us , use Bladeflurry.
RogueRoutine 2: Creator put a bit more thought into this, he knows he could parse more dps, but he thinks, hey, maybe there is a cc'ed unit near? He checks this and wont use Bladeflurry if this is the case.
For you it may looks like Rountine1 parses more DpS in a situation like this, because you don't recognize the cc break..
There are tons of Situations like this where the approaches of Routinecreators are different.
Other thing is, to really compare two routines you would have to make sure you use the same settings for both, which some don't even provide.. sure you now could say XYZ is better than ABC because it's offers more settings.
and believe me, with feedback like that no author will be mad at you for comparing, because if you are actually telling him WHY a particular product is better than his, he can and (I'm almost sure everyone would) will improve his product.
if you can't compare two products without telling why A is better than B your feedback will get no attention.
Hell if you can't compare the products without mentioning the name of the other product you can always decide to write a PM instead of in the thread, but please make sure your feedback is actually useful.
Both extremely well put responses and I agree and totally understand many points made in both.
I am coming at this from a purely PVE perspective, so I really cannot make any comments on profiles for levelling or for PVP…
But for example - I won’t name routines and am using an Alt with 7/10 Mythic xp for this example so this is from a neutral point of view and not a fan boy on his main J
Routine A: Developer A provides amazing support and is constantly listening to feedback from users and making any necessary changes in order to keep the routine as optimal as possible.
Routine B: Developer B still provides support but there is a clear difference in the time put into keeping up with the spec/class changes compared to developer A.
If we were to do a generic comparison between A&B in say 2 or 3 scenarios that were identical (Excluding trinket procs and RNG) this would surely push developer B into trying to “Catch” and exceed Routine A. This would also possibly prevent people from purchasing a routine that was slightly lacklustre in comparison to another and reduce them “Tuanha does more dps comments”…?
ChinaJade,
This was in no way intended to criticize or doubt any CR Developers work and effort they put into them and as you’ve both said each routine will have its strengths & weaknesses.
I am coming at this from a purely PVE perspective, so I really cannot make any comments on profiles for levelling or for PVP…
But for example - I won’t name routines and am using an Alt with 7/10 Mythic xp for this example so this is from a neutral point of view and not a fan boy on his main J
Routine A: Developer A provides amazing support and is constantly listening to feedback from users and making any necessary changes in order to keep the routine as optimal as possible.
Routine B: Developer B still provides support but there is a clear difference in the time put into keeping up with the spec/class changes compared to developer A.
If we were to do a generic comparison between A&B in say 2 or 3 scenarios that were identical (Excluding trinket procs and RNG) this would surely push developer B into trying to “Catch” and exceed Routine A. This would also possibly prevent people from purchasing a routine that was slightly lacklustre in comparison to another and reduce them “Tuanha does more dps comments”…?
ChinaJade,
This was in no way intended to criticize or doubt any CR Developers work and effort they put into them and as you’ve both said each routine will have its strengths & weaknesses.
ginuwine12
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You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to chinajade again 