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the Turing test

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Computers can already perform calculations faster than humans. What they can't and never will be able to do is assemilate all the different sources of information and make an accurate split second decision. The human mind is and will always be the greatest computer. How presumptuous of man to think they will create in a few years what took evolution 4.7 Billion years.

Edit: Not all human minds, some seem to be devolving.
 
Computers can already perform calculations faster than humans. What they can't and never will be able to do is assemilate all the different sources of information and make an accurate split second decision. The human mind is and will always be the greatest computer. How presumptuous of man to think they will create in a few years what took evolution 4.7 Billion years.
Edit: Not all human minds, some seem to be devolving.
If you want to emphasize the difference between computers and human, then I wholeheartedly agree with you: there will always be a difference. But I think that you are looking in the wrong direction to point at this difference. Whatever a human can DO, a computer can do also. Albeit for different reasons and through different mechanisms. There is no reason why a computer could not "assimilate all the different sources of information and make an accurate split second decision" It is a matter of knowledge (the right database) and capacity (computing power).
Once again, a computer is a machine, and the same way a bulldozer can dig deeper and faster, a computer, in some situations, could "think" better and faster. Anything that can be translated in a series of actions can be done by a computer.
Any human behavior can, in principle, be emulated by a computer. You can even program moral judgments in a computer. After all, they are only rules, and i have met enough civil servants that so blindly applied the rules they had been taught that i really wondered if there was anything human left in them. So, yes, it would be presumptuous to think that what took evolution billions of years could be done in a few years. But it can be done eventually.
 
In the 60'and 70' researchers thought that it would take no more than a decade to make computers as intelligent as human. This has of course, been proven to be false. We are indeed far from human-like intelligence in a realistic environment. All algorithms are specific to very specialized fields. Progress is being made, but not as fast as once was thought. Where will be in 50 years? Who knows?
The difference between the real world and a game world is immense though. That makes the problem of AI much easier to study. The progress in this field is very often held back by economical and financial considerations. Game publishers are not looking for the most advanced AI engines, but for what will make their shareholders happy. As far as botters are concerned, the challenge of detection makes it almost like a real life situation. But, here also, HB is a business product, not a scientific research experiment. The hours the devs put in have to be earned back somehow. Also, the necessity of having a bot react fast enough puts even more constraints on the "intelligence" we can endow it with. That is a reason why researchers very often prefer classic games like Tetrix or Pacman to conduct their experiments.

You are missing the point. Supercomputer's, PC's, or whatever, cannot calculate 01, 00, 11, 10, simultaneously, except a QBIT (Quantum) processor. There will never, let me state that again, NEVER, be a supercomputer, PC, that will efficiently correct itself or learn (cognitive learning) as what The Turning Test is explaining, no matter how much funding to put into a standard processor of yesterday and today. It's impossible. The reason researchers prefer Tetrix and Pacman... is because they're banging their heads against the wall trying to work out a solution and fit on old technology that cannot support it. QBIT is the only system that can make such calculations, the Quantum computer, when it becomes fully developed, can be compared to thousands, which do not exist - more like a few hundred, of supercomputers on amphetamines... and the most superior computer in on this planet... the mammal brain. The mammal brain can calculate faster than any man made computer, the problem... are psychological factors which cause distractions.

The OP, was just suggesting, wouldn't it be "cool" if bots were capable of cognitive learning. Wasn't being serious. But, in the real world, within a century or two... QBIT processing will be widespread and you'll have QPC's on your desk, AI's, Real Virtual Reality (not today's VR, or "3D"), Immersive content that you can interact with, etc... may sound far fetched, but far from it.

PS. Again, again, again, The Turing Test will never work on any current technology, no matter how much funding or "research" is put into it. There are many researchers that disown QBIT computing and try to discredit it, much like when the first analog computer was developed!

Eniac.jpg


The above photo, today, that technology fits on a pin head. Yet, hundreds of researchers claimed it wasn't possible... look at today. We've computer on telephones, watches, or even implants into human skin. Though, none of the previous tech will ever be able to calculate simultaneous bits. QBIT processing will dominate when it's fully recognized.
 
@Kravitz
Quantum computers might as well be science fiction for now. But there is a fundamental principle that you may have overlooked: there is a distinction between algorithms/programs on one hand, and the hardware implementation on the other. Your remarks only cover one side of the equation, the hardware side. It is true that with computers a few million times faster that what we have now, we could have bots that would compute thousands of If conditions in a few milliseconds. You could make even the dumb bots, programmed with what we know and can today, look pretty smart. The problem is that games at that time, will be a few million times more demanding too, so that our bots would look just as dumb.
The software equation is something closer to home: how to make better bots with the hardware we have? With the understanding, like you said, that they will never be even close to humans in their cognitive capacity.
 
there is a distinction between algorithms/programs on one hand, and the hardware implementation on the other.

Nope, haven't even touched base on that matter because it's all irrelevant. It's exactly, 01... pause... thinking... 11... pause... thinking... 00... pause... thinking... 10... pause... thinking... current hardware, current algorithms, current programs whatever... cannot simultaneously compute this sequence 01,11,00,10 (or whichever sequence 11,10,00,01, etc.. etc..), no matter how well of a programmer you are. Sure, you may be able to "fool" the system to think it's simultaneously processing, but that's a clear bottleneck and doesn't improve innovation. Innovation is... quit working and solving issues on OLD hardware and work with what's been grievously sought after.

I'm sure you know that all a processor knows is off/on, on/on, off/off, on/off, it doesn't matter what language to write in, it's all the same to the processing unit. That's why QBIT was developed and longed after for decades. It can handle simultaneous bits and is self efficient, as for self efficient-not there quite yet. Dwave has fully functioning systems, but they are in completely alpha stage because of the lack of support and nay-sayers out there.

Suggest you read DWAVE white-papers. These guys are, obviously, the smartest engineers in the world and, as most, started this from their garage. I've been following them since 2004 and since their first demo (2006, IIRC) in Michigan.

Now, if this system were tuned and in Switzerland with the Neutron Collider. I know Lockheed Martin has one, but there are no developers/programmers willing to work and LEARN (lol) the system.
 
I am afraid I do not share your faith in quantum computers as the all-encompassing solution to AI. And as i said, whatever the hardware solution, we will still have to program those computers, quantum or digital.
 
@Kravitz
The software equation is something closer to home: how to make better bots with the hardware we have? With the understanding, like you said, that they will never be even close to humans in their cognitive capacity.
I would like to strike that last sentence: there is no reason why computers could never achieve the same cognitive abilities as humans. I think the main, and maybe the only difference, between computers and humans/animals, is "life" and all the sensitivity and emotions that go with it. The rest is a matter of memory and experience/algorithms. Like the old movie showed, a computer has to be able to laugh before it can call: " I am alive!".
 
This is a for instance, using baseball. You are the centerfielder. When a ball is hit, a trained human can predict with great accurracy where the ball is going to hit, based on many things a computer simply can't quantify. Example, who is hitting the ball, where are they (the hitter) in their career, the game situation, maybe he just needs a base hit, the wind, the sound of the bat hitting the ball, is the grass wet/dry, the direction the player was facing when he hit the ball. A computer needs hard facts to make it's cecisions, humans can fill in the blanks based on situational data and experience. Minda you, while your brain is doing all those calclations on the fly, it is also monitoring millions of other calculations that keep you alive. There is your Super computer.
 
This is a for instance, using baseball. You are the centerfielder. When a ball is hit, a trained human can predict with great accurracy where the ball is going to hit, based on many things a computer simply can't quantify. Example, who is hitting the ball, where are they (the hitter) in their career, the game situation, maybe he just needs a base hit, the wind, the sound of the bat hitting the ball, is the grass wet/dry, the direction the player was facing when he hit the ball. A computer needs hard facts to make it's cecisions, humans can fill in the blanks based on situational data and experience. Minda you, while your brain is doing all those calclations on the fly, it is also monitoring millions of other calculations that keep you alive. There is your Super computer.
Your view is in fact the dominating view among sicentists: the brain as a super computer. Still, even if they are right, there are computer configurations which -theoretically at least- instead of using a digital model, use so-called neural networks that emulate (parts of) the brain. There is at the moment, not a single computer, super or otherwise, that can compete with the human brain. So the example you gave is a very good one.
My view on the matter is a little unorthodox, even if closer to the neural networks idea: I do not think that the brain is capable of any sort of computation. I firmly believe in the following:
You cannot explain intelligence with intelligent parts.
That means that, as far as i am concerned, neurons are just as dumb as transistors. And since brains are all made of neurons, you wonder where the computations can take place. Hey, you will say, a computer is all made of transistors, and still, it is able to compute. Okay, let's look at it more closely:
Computer instructions are a series of switches that have to be turned on/off in a specific order. Have you ever watched the Japanese domino shows, with the beautiful figures? That is exactly what a computer instruction is like. You hit the first switch, and the rest follows as if it had its own will. A computer is a super Japanese domino show, with millions/billions of domino configurations, and not a single domino can be said to be smart. Every time you load a program, you are placing domino's in a certain configuration, ready to stumble at your command. The only smart thing in a computer are the Intel/Amd boys and girls which have prepared all those configurations for you to play with.
Researches who believe more in neural networks also make the mistake of thinking in terms of computations because they think that is the way brains work.
Allow me to simplify your example and take the old computer game of ping pong (or whatever it was called). A very simple game, the ball appears at a point up in the screen, and you have to intercept it with your bat/cursor, by moving it to the right position.
Is the brain computing the ball trajectory? I personally do not think so. It takes years for a human child to master his hand and eye coordination, and professional players have to train everyday if they want to keep their edge. Why is that?
Maybe because the brain does not have any magic formula that tells him where to move the bat, and the only way he can get better at the game is memorizing each position and the corresponding actions.
 
[continued from previous post]
What I would call intelligence involves a very small part of our actions and thought: it should in fact be called meta-intelligence.
It involves not doing anymore, but looking at what we have done, and try to find patterns that can be applicable to situations our "intelligence", with its memory associations, did not discern. I think that all living beings, maybe from the simplest to man, share the same "intelligence", but only man has "meta-intelligence. Even pigeons are capable of abstract thought! But it is only impressive when men think in traditional terms about thought, as something miraculous and mystical.
This looking back can also be programmed: it is called back-propagation technique in neural networks. Of course, like anything else, it is still in its infancy it will be a long time before neural networks can even compare to humans.
Language makes it possible fro man to lay an extra layer of connections between his experiences, and discover new patterns that simple memory associations could not find. That is what ultimately makes it possible for man to build even quantum computers.
But since that is also something that could, ultimately, be programmed in computers...
 
A friend asked me what i meant by "even pigeons are capable of abstract thought".
The experiment goes something like this:
there are 2 levers and the pigeon does not know which one will give food. Above each lever is a circle drawn.
to get to the food the pigeon has to pick the lever with the bigger circle.
Once the pigeon(s) has been used to this configuration, it is then changed, with the previous bigger circle now being the smallest of the two. Pigeons chose automatically the biggest circle and not the circle they were used to.
That means they are choosing the relatively bigger circle, and not a circle based on a concrete shape or size. That is exactly what is meant in general by abstract thinking.
 
33) Why do you have to walk 20 or 30 m/yrds before mounting?
I just had a toon running for almost 100m, and when it was ready to mount, it was already surrounded by mobs! I suppose that the toon is moved in advance, while in the background other processes are going on, but the result is very often not really desirable.
 
13) don't (always) take the most efficient or shortest path.
The last mesh version takes into account sharp turns and edges, which is really a great improvement.
I would like to break a lance for another aspect of this rule: the bot does not pay any attention to what comes in its path, until the combat bot takes over. That means that the navigation path goes straight through mobs and mobs infested regions. With the Killbetweenhotspots unchecked, its is very often a very efficient solution, but so unlike human behavior that it cannot but draw attention. Humans, or at least I do, do not just run towards a mob they have no intention of attacking. They will alway try to avoid it. I know that it would be very difficult to compute the threat range of all the mobs in the toon's path and still keep the toon running/riding at a reasonable speed. But even an unsuccessful zigzag would look more natural than the straight line.
What i mean by that:
- toon sees mob on its path,
- deviates from its path
- resumes its path.

There are very few regions where the number of mobs is so low that this zigzag would make any difference, but the point is to display human-like behavior, not to avoid all mobs.
It looks like Blizzard intentionally put as many mobs as possible in the navigation paths the bots take. Of course, the bots always take walkable paths, and those are known to Blizzard. Their mobs use the same paths, even if they are allowed liberties which are forbidden to players. I wonder if if would be possible to take into account the fact that navigation paths are usually quite wide. But then, I suppose that, as most people would think, it's really not worth the trouble to try and avoid mobs like a player would.. So we will have to live with bots that navigate in a very un-human way through mobs. This is a trade-off which works to the advantage of Blizzard and human players who find it fun to report botters. At the end of the day, nobody cares if a bot looks like a bot, as long as the account does not get banned. But maybe it is this thinking that makes botting vulnerable.

edit: in the Ancient Passage, the bot runs at a certain moment, going to Binan, to the right side, where all the mobs are concentrated, while the left side is completely empty!
 
Q:
how easy was it to detected botting
A:
It was pretty easy for the most part. 99% of it was visual. You could tell right away if it was a real player or a bot just by their pattern of movements.

from "Intresting* Interview with a former Blizzard Employee (GM) talking about bots too." Link provided by Highdeath.
 
This is a for instance, using baseball. You are the centerfielder. When a ball is hit, a trained human can predict with great accurracy where the ball is going to hit, based on many things a computer simply can't quantify. Example, who is hitting the ball, where are they (the hitter) in their career, the game situation, maybe he just needs a base hit, the wind, the sound of the bat hitting the ball, is the grass wet/dry, the direction the player was facing when he hit the ball. A computer needs hard facts to make it's cecisions, humans can fill in the blanks based on situational data and experience. Minda you, while your brain is doing all those calclations on the fly, it is also monitoring millions of other calculations that keep you alive. There is your Super computer.


Agree, but it seems odarn knows it all. ;)

Quantum Computing may come very close to the human brain, or excel, when it becomes mainstream.

@odarn
Lol at the neurons and transistors analogy... you totally miss the point. There is absolutely no supercomputer or "best" programmer(s) out there that could EVER achieve sufficient results in the Turing Test using the best super computer on this planet or tomorrow until QP has matured. Period. It... Is... Impossible...! Hardware, coding, whatever, will never be able to come close to the calculations needed. Scientists know this!

You will ONLY see accumulative results with Quantum computing.... yes it needs to be programed as ANY computer does, but the OP obviously neglects to understand the capabilities of Q-Bit processing vs todays stone aged tech. Do you even understand what simultaneous processing is... seems to me you do not and that you're just talking out of your ass. No offense, but obviously you don't understand the LIMITS of today's technology.

Quantum computing is neither a fantasy nor a hog wash theory. It is very real.
1) Those who jump into QP will see what tomorrow brings... and the future beyond it.
2) Those who stay with todays tech will be sitting on a bench reading yesterdays paper.

More info:
Scientists Create "Mysterious Quasiparticle" Needed for Quantum Computing in Arcane Lab
 
@Kravitz
As long as quantum computers exist only in labs and imagination, i do not really sea the point of your argumentation. We will get to quantum computers eventually, and then we will see what kind of problems we (still) have to solve. Until then, the best we can do is try to achieve as much as we can with what we have.
 
1) never run in a straight line if there are mobs ahead. grind your way thru if necessary, avoid when you can
This rule seems to be already taken care of by the Kill Between Hotspots setting. Still, as always, the setting is a yes or no decision. We humans can make decision D in one situation, and reject in another. In this case, i would say: is the quest item or giver still far away? Then run through as fast as you can. Are you near your objective, which means you will have to stop soon? Then better take care of the mobs first, instead of pulling them all to where you will stop.

edit: I know that our 3 titans, (in order of appearance, Kicks, Cava and Brodie) very often put such a directive where they deem it necessary, and that would be exactly what I mean. There seems, on the other hand, to be a general consensus among the profile writers concerning the quality of the gear. It looks like, very often, that only a toon laden with heirlooms and enchants would have any chance of surviving many situations our dear writers (may the gods of Azeroth lengthen their lives) put our toons in.

edit: seems to me that we humans follow a rather simple rule:
We want to clear our path when we are approaching our goal, but once we are done, we want to get the hell out of there, as fast as we can.
edit2:
It is important not to forget that isolated rules do not mean much in themselves. It is only the combination of many rules and concrete knowledge of the situation that makes them valuable. They are the results of many life experiences, and since bot cannot learn them from themselves (yet), we have to provide them ourselves.
For example,we know, when approaching an enemy camp, that it would not be really smart to go directly to the boss and attack him after having pulled half of the camp to get there. But when is it worth it running as far as possible, and when should we stop at the outskirts and work our way in? We could certainly devise abstract rules for that, but it would be much easier to rely on our concrete knowledge of the situation. That would help us decide when to stop the bot and start fighting our way through to the boss.
After all, that is exactly what we do as human players, after we have died once or twice.
 
34) Avoid bosses you have already killed.
I could make it a more general rule and say:
34 bis) Do not go looking for trouble!
Unchecking the kill between hotspots does not seem to dampen the bot's aggressiveness: it attacks mobs that are just going on their way to their final place (which happens a lot in MoP), and which could easily be left alone. This just makes the completing of quests longer and more hazardous. So, I would say, mobs and bosses that would not attack you unless you get really close, should be left alone if there is no reason to attack them.
 
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