Rebornbuddy store

[freebox]

I have mixed feelings on a store. I do like that to have the items you need to pay for them so there will always be less people using other then a free. But the free foster more of a sense of community. When you start charging that means you need to support it. Giving it free will let you move on so if you quit the game and don't want to run it you don't need to log on to test new CR or tweek the newest raid rotation. I personally feel that if they are willing to work for a CR or botbase yea I am fine paying. But a mining/bot you really kind of set up people to start getting in the habit of Honorbuddy and have 50 players running the same thing for hours with a 10 man bot train behind them.
So CR and Botbase yea, profiles......... I would rather see more info on how to make them.

 

[Azoth]

Masterkilj, it seems pointless to continue this conversation if you're just going recycle the same doom-fearing statements without addressing any of the arguments I brought up.

 

[Mr McGibblets]

I have mixed feelings on a store. I do like that to have the items you need to pay for them so there will always be less people using other then a free. But the free foster more of a sense of community. When you start charging that means you need to support it. Giving it free will let you move on so if you quit the game and don't want to run it you don't need to log on to test new CR or tweek the newest raid rotation. I personally feel that if they are willing to work for a CR or botbase yea I am fine paying. But a mining/bot you really kind of set up people to start getting in the habit of Honorbuddy and have 50 players running the same thing for hours with a 10 man bot train behind them.
So CR and Botbase yea, profiles......... I would rather see more info on how to make them.

The profile creation concepts are out there its just really hard to find. Its all tied up into all of the "megaprofile" and "mining/botany unspoiled" nodes. That and a lot of older threads that haven't been responded to in a while since it was just a "hey how did I get my profile to do this". So really you will end up reading through a lot of post to get an idea of what allows what.

As far as bot trains they already exist. You'll notice if you are using some of the unspoiled profiles without editing the waypoints and order of nodes during same time spawn that you can sometimes catch a couple at the same time. I notice it most with the shard/crystal farmers who are using reborn buddy and the authentication server gos down and 3-5 guys suddenly stop farming right in the same 10yalms from each other.

Store or no store won't fix that though as the nodes are individual to each player so you aren't going to the node itself you are setting a hotspot and letting the bot find the objects to interact with. Also its Friday and I'm ranting about nothing.

Edit: to keep my post more on topic, I'm really indifferent. Its nice to have the "hidden pay site" material posted on the store to find but 90% of the honorbuddy store was recycled junk (profile wise). Though it does make a good incentive for the plugin and botbase creators to go to town with more "expected" income.

 

[MasterKilj]

Masterkilj, it seems pointless to continue this conversation if you're just going recycle the same doom-fearing statements without addressing any of the arguments I brought up.

All points covered. You have yet to actually argue my points if you want to go there but I will cover your points again. Idiots will be banned but the bot is not handicapped. It does everything it is so far set out to do and does it well. It gathers for you, levels for you and the combat routines work quite well for any finder group you could want.

Having a buddystore for RB will cripple the bot even more with a more narrowed community of developers and deter neophyte developers. Only thing I saw in the honorbuddy store was 90% pvp based and the rest for pve rotations. Bots people do not really care for until it affects them in the game. The larger majority of legit players affected the larger the bulls eye is placed on the bot. The quickest way to force SE to have to respond at a higher priority is to put bots in pve and pvp. FF 14 has a very small pvp community and they are always alert for people who bot in frontlines and wolf den.

Same for pve. You join enough groups and see bots as your tank or healer or dps and you will see the same scenario as above. If people want better created combat routines then the best way is to foster a free and vibrant community that has people wanting to share addons and teach people how to develop their own. All the store does is put more work on Mash as he said he would have to go through every entry for the buddy store and insure the code is not stolen/buggy code. And on top of that every update a routine or buddy store product will require him to go through and perform quality control for every update further pushing the development of the bot away.

And if you think that HB staff is going to add more workers to help with the speed and development of RB then FF 14 will have to grow 10 fold for it to even be near the same level as wow and HB. 400k is the estimated playerbase for ff 14. Also unlike HB and wow there is a playstation population as well. They do not like the advantages that pc have in the game as it is. They will surely demand that SE keeps the playing field as equal as possible which will pressure them even more to ***** down on the bot. I am not sure if RB has any detection tripwire like HB does.

If you want me to keep giving you the reason as to why the store is a bad idea then I can. But honestly right now it will not happen and until Mash gets a huge laundry list of fixes/enhancements he wants to see ready for Heavensward then a store is the last thing on his mind.

 

[phdchristmas]

let's face the facts

More developers voting than users.

 

[Azoth]

All points covered.

Really? I could literally copy/paste my previous post to answer this one, since you actually are saying the same thing in a slightly different way, without answering any counterarguments. I'll change the phrasing a little bit though, in the hopes that it'll get through.

We get that you think the store worked out poorly for HB, and don't want the same thing to happen here. What you don't seem to understand is that the situations aren't the same. At the time HB had a larger playerbase, larger pool of developers, and a more established foundation. You're correct that RB certainly isn't handicapped, but it could definitely benefit much more from increased developer attention. The downsides that you mentioned in regards to pricing and inferior products are not faults of the concept of a store, just how it was done. I've said it (twice) before, but it seems I have to once more, a good idea implemented poorly is not the same as a bad idea. Purchasing digital products isn't really all that innovative or scary unless you've never used an app store.

In regards to features, RB works pretty well, but that doesn't mean it can't be better. 'More development' doesn't have to mean dungeon or pvp bots like you're assuming, which I don't necessarily want either, but stuff like "CR or crafting or questing or TT or racing". And if you think the CR's work 'quite well', I'm really wondering if you've ever played anything other than physical dps outside of dungeons or Echo'd content.

In addition, limiting RB isn't going to help when other FFXIV bots don't. I've used other FFXIV bots in the past that do more than RB, because they care less about being caught. You yourself said that 'botting is not for main stream people with weak stomaches', which means you understand that botters will tend to put features ahead of caution. Other bots won't shy away from dungeons or pvp or hacks, and the less RB offers, the more botters will use competitors. Leading to a larger number of people using unsafe bots, getting banned and drawing the very attention you're so desperate to avoid.

As for the actual development of the store, well, I'm not going to pretend to know the workings or resources of the buddy team. I would assume that increased revenue from a store means they could have someone else for quality control, but ultimately if they decide it's not worth the time, then that's their decision. I'm not arguing for immediate implementation, just that it is a concept worth considering.

You keep talking about a golden age of HB where 'devs did it for free because they were learning and enjoyed other people who used their work'. I have my doubts about the accuracy of that memory, but in any case it is a gross misunderstanding of the situation here. You're living in a fantastical world where community devs have infinite time to cater to our needs. Here in reality, while they do act out of a desire to help, they have their own lives to live and bills to pay. They get far more complaints than compensation, and hard work is taken for granted (for reference, see this https://www.thebuddyforum.com/rebornbuddy-forum/215885-rb-buddy-store-2.html#post1978439)

You've mentioned people making money they don't deserve off the store. What about the devs who do deserve it? They certainly aren't getting anything as things are.

 

[MasterKilj]

I already stated my reasons and we are now going back and forth. The devs that deserve the money is something that is in the eye of the beholder. Some do fantastic work and having them work full time on routines and be compensated I am all for. Just through donations and not paid because that is how it started in HB and the method I support. When you do it through donations and support the only complaints as you speak of are mainly from people who want to go above and beyond what the intent of the developers of the bot seem to want at this point of time. Yes oddly rebornbuddy does advertise using it as a pvp tool but in all honesty that is a death sentence to a perm ban to anyone who attempts it when the pool of pvpers on ff 14 is probably less then 1k people and you will be ferreted out quickly.

the buddy bots was made more or less for doing mundane tasks as I hate stated in previous posts. The bot's logic does not even really perform well for pve rotations at this time in regards to timing of cooldowns and when to use certain rotations. Until those innate obstacles are fixed combat routines will be limited so even a store version of a routine is going to be subpar and honestly not worth having a store for.

But as we both ultimately know until Mash says himself he feels he has time to even consider a buddy store this conversation is meh. You have said all I do is repeat myself. You have yet to give me any new information on why we need a buddy store yourself then expect me to give different answers? As long as people keep pushing for a buddystore I will push to not have a buddy store. The devs that have voted to have a buddystore some of them may not have even dealt with the original buddystore with the slow update cycles and having to go through the buddy team to allow updates and push new features is actually going backwards on the development of the bot in general.

HB was way more along before the buddy store was ever considered and reborn buddy is not even at the same level. I said yes rebornbuddy bot is the best ff 14 bot because it is the most stable and performs the core functions one should expect from it and it does it better then any other ff 14 bot currently around. What you want is the bot to allow you to compete with the higher end of the pvp/pve crowd and play your jobs/classes for you which the bot once starts accomplishing that yes puts my interests in greater danger. I use the bot for wealth building mainly and do not want to see its core stability weakened because people wanted to rush the bells and whistles. My opinion on not wanting bots in pve/pvp are my own opinions and probably selfish at that but its reasoning is sound.

Because I do not want the bot to become too good at every aspect of the game SE feels it must do something more about it. That is my first and foremost reason. The second is because a open development community is what HB use to be about and one I have and will advocate to have over a pay and hope I will honor my agreement and push updates to my addons community that has permeated and quite honestly weakened the HB community as a whole.

Anyhow I am finished with this thread and will just let it be buried since what we all think is kind of minute until Mash even gets to a point where a buddystore can even become an option. I wish you well with your endeavors.

 

[altnob]

Honestly there are very VERY few profiles in the current state of this bot worth paying money for IMO. People could charge money in HB because the profiles were top notch and could compete and beat manual users at end game tasks.

Show me a combat routine that can outdps/outheal top 3 regularly and I'll pay for it for sure. Archebuddy had the mistake of introducing buddystore too soon and you had people charging 20$ for absolute shit scripts.

 

[Wheredidigo]

Honestly there are very VERY few profiles in the current state of this bot worth paying money for IMO. People could charge money in HB because the profiles were top notch and could compete and beat manual users at end game tasks.

Show me a combat routine that can outdps/outheal top 3 regularly and I'll pay for it for sure. Archebuddy had the mistake of introducing buddystore too soon and you had people charging 20$ for absolute shit scripts.

The problem with this is this...Show me a reason to invest 100's of hours building a top knotch Combat Routine and then give it away for free.

As a developer who has experience with building said routine, and also has experience with HB's BuddyStore...making a CR right now just doesn't make sense to me. I'm not going to spend 100's of hours first developing and then supporting a CR I give away. The main drawback with CR's is that they are never ending. As soon as a new patch/expansion releases that changes rotations, you are expected to go spend another 100 hours fixing/changing shit that they broke. Now if I'm making money off that CR, then I have no problem doing that...but not for free. That's why I've moved to plugins. Once the functionality is built, the plugin is done. Take GourmetGuy V2 for example. There's been a few bugs, but with my next push, I shouldn't have to touch that plugin again at all because it just works.

 

[altnob]

The problem with this is this...Show me a reason to invest 100's of hours building a top knotch Combat Routine and then give it away for free.

As a developer who has experience with building said routine, and also has experience with HB's BuddyStore...making a CR right now just doesn't make sense to me. I'm not going to spend 100's of hours first developing and then supporting a CR I give away. The main drawback with CR's is that they are never ending. As soon as a new patch/expansion releases that changes rotations, you are expected to go spend another 100 hours fixing/changing shit that they broke. Now if I'm making money off that CR, then I have no problem doing that...but not for free. That's why I've moved to plugins. Once the functionality is built, the plugin is done. Take GourmetGuy V2 for example. There's been a few bugs, but with my next push, I shouldn't have to touch that plugin again at all because it just works.

Did you miss my point entirely? I said if it's good it's worth paying for. If it's a scrub build you threw together over night why would I pay 10$+ for it? Why would I pay anything above 2$? You don't go to the movies to see the first clip of an upcoming new release. Why should we pay for the first clip of an upcoming new plugin or CR?

 

[Wantmymoneyback]

The problem with this is this...Show me a reason to invest 100's of hours building a top knotch Combat Routine and then give it away for free.

As a developer who has experience with building said routine, and also has experience with HB's BuddyStore...making a CR right now just doesn't make sense to me. I'm not going to spend 100's of hours first developing and then supporting a CR I give away. The main drawback with CR's is that they are never ending. As soon as a new patch/expansion releases that changes rotations, you are expected to go spend another 100 hours fixing/changing shit that they broke. Now if I'm making money off that CR, then I have no problem doing that...but not for free. That's why I've moved to plugins. Once the functionality is built, the plugin is done. Take GourmetGuy V2 for example. There's been a few bugs, but with my next push, I shouldn't have to touch that plugin again at all because it just works.

So happy to have a an actual developer comment on this thanks for the valuable input as this was my point all along

 

[Endus]

Honestly there are very VERY few profiles in the current state of this bot worth paying money for IMO. People could charge money in HB because the profiles were top notch and could compete and beat manual users at end game tasks.

Show me a combat routine that can outdps/outheal top 3 regularly and I'll pay for it for sure. Archebuddy had the mistake of introducing buddystore too soon and you had people charging 20$ for absolute shit scripts.

The problem is it's a chicken vs egg issue. I don't cut any corners with Ultima but I also only work on it in my free time (as I'm an adult with a day job and I still have to focus on my career and certifications/job hunting/etc. on top of managing my marriage and social life). If Ultima was paid it would receive much more dev time (as I could justify it as a "second job" basically).

Although I do agree that there are scummy people out there would would charge for garbage just to take advantage though.

The problem with this is this...Show me a reason to invest 100's of hours building a top knotch Combat Routine and then give it away for free.

As a developer who has experience with building said routine, and also has experience with HB's BuddyStore...making a CR right now just doesn't make sense to me. I'm not going to spend 100's of hours first developing and then supporting a CR I give away. The main drawback with CR's is that they are never ending. As soon as a new patch/expansion releases that changes rotations, you are expected to go spend another 100 hours fixing/changing shit that they broke. Now if I'm making money off that CR, then I have no problem doing that...but not for free. That's why I've moved to plugins. Once the functionality is built, the plugin is done. Take GourmetGuy V2 for example. There's been a few bugs, but with my next push, I shouldn't have to touch that plugin again at all because it just works.

Truth. This expansion is going to serious test my patience considering Square Enix is basically reworking EVERYTHING combat related. Ultima will have to start from scratch (well not the core, but all the rotations).

 

[Sodimm]

I too am all for the store, my profiles over all their iterations have been downloaded over 14k times (if counters are to be believed). Yet I've received not a single donation. Now I'll be the first to admit that my profiles can be somewhat buggy at first, but they're quickly fixed, leaving only bugs inherent with the bot and human error remaining. Now I've spent an awful lot of time on these profiles and Combat Routine (not yet released, but can be found on my SVN); and sure, I'm not the greatest at C# out there, but I do make sure they work. So I'd welcome some recompense for the hours I've put into making them. There are a tonne of better developers here on the forum, and I've donated to many of them, they deserve something for their time, or the bot wouldn't even be where it is today without them, and me, even if to a lesser degree.

 

[Valpsjuk]

And having to "pay for crap" isn't really that big an issue anyway.

Since the developers can choose to allow you to test their plugins/botbases and profiles for a few days so you can try before you buy.

If a developer won't allow you to test it... well, I would certainly be weary of throwing money at something like that...

 

[Wantmymoneyback]

I too am all for the store, my profiles over all their iterations have been downloaded over 14k times (if counters are to be believed). Yet I've received not a single donation. Now I'll be the first to admit that my profiles can be somewhat buggy at first, but they're quickly fixed, leaving only bugs inherent with the bot and human error remaining. Now I've spent an awful lot of time on these profiles and Combat Routine (not yet released, but can be found on my SVN); and sure, I'm not the greatest at C# out there, but I do make sure they work. So I'd welcome some recompense for the hours I've put into making them. There are a tonne of better developers here on the forum, and I've donated to many of them, they deserve something for their time, or the bot wouldn't even be where it is today without them, and me, even if to a lesser degree.

I agree i feel you guys should get paid for your hard work and dedication before you simply get fed up with working for free and abandon us for the HB store content. I don't mean you as in you will just in general

 

[matt84]

All points covered. You have yet to actually argue my points if you want to go there but I will cover your points again. Idiots will be banned but the bot is not handicapped. It does everything it is so far set out to do and does it well. It gathers for you, levels for you and the combat routines work quite well for any finder group you could want.

Having a buddystore for RB will cripple the bot even more with a more narrowed community of developers and deter neophyte developers. Only thing I saw in the honorbuddy store was 90% pvp based and the rest for pve rotations. Bots people do not really care for until it affects them in the game. The larger majority of legit players affected the larger the bulls eye is placed on the bot. The quickest way to force SE to have to respond at a higher priority is to put bots in pve and pvp. FF 14 has a very small pvp community and they are always alert for people who bot in frontlines and wolf den.

Same for pve. You join enough groups and see bots as your tank or healer or dps and you will see the same scenario as above. If people want better created combat routines then the best way is to foster a free and vibrant community that has people wanting to share addons and teach people how to develop their own. All the store does is put more work on Mash as he said he would have to go through every entry for the buddy store and insure the code is not stolen/buggy code. And on top of that every update a routine or buddy store product will require him to go through and perform quality control for every update further pushing the development of the bot away.

And if you think that HB staff is going to add more workers to help with the speed and development of RB then FF 14 will have to grow 10 fold for it to even be near the same level as wow and HB. 400k is the estimated playerbase for ff 14. Also unlike HB and wow there is a playstation population as well. They do not like the advantages that pc have in the game as it is. They will surely demand that SE keeps the playing field as equal as possible which will pressure them even more to ***** down on the bot. I am not sure if RB has any detection tripwire like HB does.

If you want me to keep giving you the reason as to why the store is a bad idea then I can. But honestly right now it will not happen and until Mash gets a huge laundry list of fixes/enhancements he wants to see ready for Heavensward then a store is the last thing on his mind.

i'll make a point then

*People are already using the bot as a rotation bot in PvE situations, you're most feared reality is already here. The only difference is, dev's arent getting compensated.
and i dont know where you get your infomation in another post, but the bot performs perfectly good in a PvE environment, it comes down to how well the PvE Routine is coded, i'm consistently performing on par with jobs the same ilvl as i am over a multiple of jobs
Bard / Warrior / Dragoon / Summoner / ninja - all of which are always performing incredibly well in Crystal Tower and Bahamut.

 

[MasterKilj]

i'll make a point then

*People are already using the bot as a rotation bot in PvE situations, you're most feared reality is already here. The only difference is, dev's arent getting compensated.
and i dont know where you get your infomation in another post, but the bot performs perfectly good in a PvE environment, it comes down to how well the PvE Routine is coded, i'm consistently performing on par with jobs the same ilvl as i am over a multiple of jobs
Bard / Warrior / Dragoon / Summoner / ninja - all of which are always performing incredibly well in Crystal Tower and Bahamut.

My fears were already realized in honorbuddy when 20-30% of the entire wow population was botting all aspects of the game that requires most human interaction. It is not even a drop in the bucket as of yet on Rebornbuddy. And no the routines from Ultima and Kupper perfrom well yes but the difference in playing my bard by hand and from kupper is still about 70-100 dps not withstanding manual use of cooldowns. Its aoe rotation seemed good though but the bot is not there yet.

My issue is that yes as a public bot the more and more people that bot is one thing but the more people use it for pve/pvp the higher the risk that SE will do something about it. Considering that I still hear of people who bot on 10+ accounts 24/7 and have not been as so much given a suspension after an entire year we are not even at that point but the more bots can raid and play in pvp it is when the crap hits the fan. That is my point and the buddystore was focused almost solely on those two aspects.

 

[Wheredidigo]

Let me be the bearer of "bad" news for you. A Store for RebornBuddy is probably off the table. The last information given to the community developers regarding the Store and all of the changes that are being forced out is that out of 92 contracts that were sent out, only 6 had been signed and returned. Yes that means that come July 1st there will only be 6 do velopers for the Store and everyone else will have to go elsewhere to make money off there work. Now obviously this information is a few weeks old now, so more people "could" still sign the new contract, but you ar looking at less than 10% of the developers that were on the Store being still on it come July 1st.

This is why I make the claim that even if Mastahg does implement a RB Store. I'm not sure who would/will use it. I know I won't be doing business with Bossland anytime soon again.

 

[Dgame]

I'm for the store as well if only for better support of profiles and such. Far too often you get an awesome Botbase, plugin or profile and then one day it's trash or simply out dated. It really gets frustrating sometimes and I find myself looking elsewhere for hopefully better support and functionality.

 

[Arden]

The sad truth is that Bossland's business model is set up for failure. I'd go elsewhere, but there isn't anywhere else to go. Other bots I've tested are a joke compared to the buddy line of bots and the community we have here.
Without that community though, there would be no Buddy bots. Either Bossland doesn't understand this, doesn't care, or just doesn't make enough money from their "other" bots to bother with giving them proper support.
What I just can't wrap my head around is that the cost for basic functionality is being passed onto the end user. I fully agree that the community developers that make the bot base actually useful should be compensated for their work, I just think it should be Bossland doing the compensating. After all, the ONLY reason to buy one of their bots is for the community developed content.
All of the bots I've used (RBB,DB,EB) would be basically useless without the community developers.

This is what it says on the purchase page for RBB:

Fatebot, PVPBot, Grindbot, Gatherbot and Raidbot for FF14: A Realm Reborn

Fatebot - fate grinding
PVPBot - Full PVP support
Leveling & Gathering & Raiding & Fishing
Fully featured Crafting System

Fatebot - Wouldn't be possible without community developed combat routine.
PvP bot - I was under the impression this wasn't even working. Before the HW update, of course. Still, wouldn't be possible without a combat routine developed by the community.
Leveling & Gathering & Raiding & Fishing - All community developed.
Crafting System - Wouldn't be possible without community developers.

Bossland either needs to make it perfectly clear that we are just paying for a basic bot base and need to be adept to expert programmers to actually get any use out of it, or they need to start supporting the people creating what they are advertising.

That's just my 2c on the matter.