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Phelon's Playground - Support Thread

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Powered said:
Great sounds good, thanks Phelon!
Two laws I can think of that are very useful:

Laws of Hope: Wings of Angel +50% move speed and move through enemies
- Great for fast rift farming (GR 65 or under and TX).
- Amazing combo with fire walker boots (no illusory boots required) and won't get stuck on objects/stop to break doors when not steed charging.
- I usually pair this with in-geom and Rally -> Resulting in permanent Bombard, steed charge, iron skin, consecration, and laws of hope etc.
- Used on CD when not steed charging, but priority over everything else (even iron skin).

Laws of Justice (Decaying Strength or Immovable Object)
- Used for pushing high GRs, adds immense survivability.
- Can usually keep the buff up 90% of the time with 60% CDR and Laws Passive.
- Used on CD when not steed charging, but priority over everything else (except iron skin).
Click to expand...

Can you give me a link to the build you use, none of the top Seasonal Saders use this build.
 
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Elandal said:
Invoker builds use Laws of Valor/Justice (or Hope for speed runs). He might be referring to that build. The top build is LoN Bombardment though, which is what everyone at the top is using.

This LoN Bombardment varient for T10 also runs Laws of Hope.
Click to expand...

This is what I am going by: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/rankings/season/6/rift-crusader

I typically only build for top builds, which is why I do not support invokers. I also dont really worry about speed builds. But none of the builds here in the top 20 have laws.
 
Phelon said:
This is what I am going by: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/rankings/season/6/rift-crusader

I typically only build for top builds, which is why I do not support invokers. I also dont really worry about speed builds. But none of the builds here in the top 20 have laws.
Click to expand...

Well my build is a LON Bombard build.
I would say closest to:
https://www.thebuddyforum.com/demon...es/239842-guide-lon-bombardment-crusader.html

Speed runs are created from me playing around with different gear/builds, and the standard LON bombard with Rally+In-Geom+Laws of Hope+Consecration appear to the be the fastest for farming keys, DB, and sub 65 GR's. With laws of hope - botted speed run TX are typically less than 2 minutes, probably faster by hand.

Now for GR pushing with solely the bot (not by hand).
With laws of justice - I cleared up to GR 81 botting (season 5).
Currently botting GR 76 in under 6 minutes with Laws of Justice, suboptimal gear, 0 deaths in S6. I think I can probably bot it up to 78-79, but want to stay off the leaderboards. Playing by hand, I can probably finish up to GR 90 (I noticed most crusaders in top 20 also have sub-optimal pieces).

As for top 20 crusader builds on S6 ladder, I've never had the bot work well with Condemn (Vacuum) and Strongarm bracers, which is what they are using.
I don't think the bot is smart enough to handle logic to bot in the 80-95 range GR which is:
- Avoid being hit at all until COE cycle (1 ranged spear can kill you). This is tough for the bot, as we would need avoidance for every type of ranged attack.
- Fish for elites that die fast (Ignore elites and High HP elites toggle doesn't seem to work well).
- Need to save a good pylon to finish RG quickly (i.e. Empower).

The issue has (and always will be) survivability for LON bombard. We have no sustain or healing other than templar and potion. Consecration is great in theory for some extra healing, but the bot almost never stays in Consecration range. Also, you would need to dodge/avoid when needed and re-enter consecration range, which is why I think LOJ is better since it is passive mitigation. The 20% extra damage from Divine Verdict during COE cycle is also > Consecration thorns damage.

Ultimately the top crusaders play by hand and can dodge/not get hit. I don't think we can ever get to a point with DB where we can emulate their avoidance and situational awareness. I do see some crusaders with Vacuum + Laws of Justice on there though. But you're 100% right, LOJ is not necessary if you don't get hit.

I strictly only played LON bombard through S5 and now S6. And everything I'm saying is from my experience. But I'll play around with the bot using vacuum and strongarm bracers on my normal char with optimal gear. But I can tell you that at 81 GR, I was getting 1 shot without LOJ.

I think the best way to see what I'm explaining is try botting a GR 77 or 78 with LOJ and then try it with Consecration. I think you will see faster clear times from less deaths.
 
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Powered said:
Well my build is a LON Bombard build.
I would say closest to:
https://www.thebuddyforum.com/demon...es/239842-guide-lon-bombardment-crusader.html

Speed runs are created from me playing around with different gear/builds, and the standard LON bombard with Rally+In-Geom+Laws of Hope+Consecration appear to the be the fastest for farming keys, DB, and sub 65 GR's. With laws of hope - botted speed run TX are typically less than 2 minutes, probably faster by hand.

Now for GR pushing with solely the bot (not by hand).
With laws of justice - I can clear up to GR 81 with DB.
Currently botting GR 76 in under 6 minutes with Laws of Justice, suboptimal gear, 0 deaths in S6. I think I can probably take it up to 80, but want to stay off the leaderboards.

As for top 20 crusader builds on S6 ladder, I've never had the bot work well with Condemn (Vacuum) and Strongarm bracers, which is what they are using.
I don't think the bot is smart enough to handle logic to bot in the 80-95 range GR which is:
- Avoid being hit at all until COE cycle (1 ranged spear can kill you). This is tough for the bot, as we would need avoidance for every type of ranged attack.
- Fish for elites that die fast (Ignore elites and High HP elites toggle doesn't seem to work well).
- Need to save a good pylon to finish RG quickly (i.e. Empower).

Laws are great for botting.
Click to expand...

Can you explain what potion with bombardment does?
 
Phelon said:
Can you explain what potion with bombardment does?
Click to expand...

Apparently it's a "bug". I don't know if it's been fixed, but it resets the bombardment timer on the belt of trove.
I.e. if you potion, then your next bombardment technically shouldn't land until the 6-8 seconds later based on your belt. Theorycrafters used the potion to align the CD of belt with COE cycle physical.

I've played around with the potion alignment on Demonbuddy, but either I have the wrong CD belt, or they fixed it. It's too hard for me to tell so I turned it off - as I need the potion for critical health events. And sometimes it seemed to align correctly (could be chance) and sometimes it didn't seem like it reset the CD.

A lot of other factors affect the belt bombardment though.
1. Mobs in range (won't start counting CD down until a mob is in range).
2. Entering a new floor.
3. Using a pylon/rift.
4. Changing gear.

So if you used a potion to sync alignment with COE, if there are no mobs around - it won't activate the 6-8 second timer.

I think this would require more testing to see if it's been hotfixed though.
 
Powered said:
Apparently it's a "bug". I don't know if it's been fixed, but it resets the bombardment timer on the belt of trove.
I.e. if you potion, then your next bombardment technically shouldn't land until the 6-8 seconds later based on your belt. Theorycrafters used the potion to align the CD of belt with COE cycle physical.

I've played around with the potion alignment on Demonbuddy, but either I have the wrong CD belt, or they fixed it. It's too hard for me to tell so I turned it off - as I need the potion for critical health events. And sometimes it seemed to align correctly (could be chance) and sometimes it didn't seem like it reset the CD.

A lot of other factors affect the belt bombardment though.
1. Mobs in range (won't start counting CD down until a mob is in range).
2. Entering a new floor.
3. Using a pylon/rift.
4. Changing gear.

So if you used a potion to sync alignment with COE, if there are no mobs around - it won't activate the 6-8 second timer.

I think this would require more testing to see if it's been hotfixed though.
Click to expand...

It would have to be a 6 second belt then. As the CoE timer is 12 second rotations. I will look at the Trinity Code to see if I can figure it out.
 
Just curious since you don't really have a lot of detailed info in the post, does your LoN Bombardment routine do anything that can't be selected in the standard trinity settings?
 
Phelon said:
It would have to be a 6 second belt then. As the CoE timer is 12 second rotations. I will look at the Trinity Code to see if I can figure it out.
Click to expand...

I think COE timer is 16 seconds? Which is why 8 second belt theoretically lines up perfectly, but hard to keep alignment 100% correct due to the factors stated in my previous post.

I use a 6 second belt, as I agree 33% more bombardments are more helpful than an 8 second belt. But I'm unsure what Trinity is using with the "Align Potion with Bombardment" tickbox in Trinity under Crusader Combat settings. I've asked around, but received no responses on that. Either way, if potions are syncing bombardment (which I still haven't been able to test and prove) - it would just be as simple as using potion 6/7/or 8 seconds (depending on your belt) before physical. Sounds like on an 8 second belt that timing would be right as Fire COE rotation ends, or 2 seconds into Holy Rotation based on a 6 second belt.

On the Trinty Trello, there are some comments in regards to this which may help.

https://trello.com/c/uPcrntLh

I'm not really sure what he is saying here, but it looks like it was built into Trinity.

Code: 
[COLOR=#4D4D4D][FONT=Helvetica Neue]it would be nice if you can also take care the passive bombardment alignment (Belt of the Trove 8 secs)[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#4D4D4D][FONT=Helvetica Neue]it can be aligned by using legendary potion on holy (t4, t8) in grift
but any pylons or change floor will reset the passive bombardment
since it's hard to keep it tracked, in my implementation, i just keep drinking potion on beginning of holy by modify UsePotionIfNeededTask() in HandlerTarget.cs,[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#4D4D4D][FONT=Helvetica Neue]NOTE: 
an alignment may cause a passive bombardment misfiring if alignment is prior to that time of passive bombardment should drop, so we better not to perform alignment on physical[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#4D4D4D][FONT=Helvetica Neue]e.g.,
L -> Lighting
P-> Physical
F-> Fire
H-> Holy
UPB -> unaligned passive bombardment
APB -> aligned passive bombardment
MPB -> misfiring passive bombardment
due to CD resetted by taking legendary potion
LLLL　PPPP　FFFF　HHHH　LLLL　PPPP　FFFF HHHH　LLLL　PPPP
[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#4D4D4D][FONT=Helvetica Neue]UPB　　　　　UPB　 takePos MPB　 APB　 　　　 APB　　　　　APB[/FONT][/COLOR]

There's also some math on Alignment on Reddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Diablo3Crusaders/comments/4427p3/belt_of_trove_8sec_belt_of_trove_6sec/


Hope this helps!
 
Nononono said:
Just curious since you don't really have a lot of detailed info in the post, does your LoN Bombardment routine do anything that can't be selected in the standard trinity settings?
Click to expand...

Phelon stated in his other post (#4?)

LoN Bombardment is for Solo Play only.

As for skills:

Consecration | Bombardment | Akarats | Steed | Condemn | Iron Skin | Shield Glare is what it currently supports.

It will only cast Condem | Iron Skin | Shield Glare | Consecration when it is not steed charging in effort to use Steed Charge to its max advantage. I will probably tweak this for CoE. It will only cast Bombardment when Ironskin is up. And all of that will only cast when CoE is ready or active.

The idea is to maximize damage. I am currently doing 76's and tweaking as I go.
Click to expand...

I've noticed that it doesn't kite around as much and sticks closer to mobs (which is great for consecration). But it's a pretty different routine than the standard Trinity version.

I would try it for yourself with the "Phelons playground" ticked, and try it without.
 
Powered said:
A lot of other factors affect the belt bombardment though.
1. Mobs in range (won't start counting CD down until a mob is in range).
Click to expand...

this one is not true,
CD count down whether mob is in range or not
people in China already done the test and confirmed
 
tbdf said:
this one is not true,
CD count down whether mob is in range or not
people in China already done the test and confirmed
Click to expand...

Well then theoretically, an 8 second belt is the best. it should be permanent COE sync once you align it with a potion until you switch floors or activate a shrine. But it doesn't line up a lot of the time, so there must be something else messing it up.
 
Powered said:
Well then theoretically, an 8 second belt is the best. it should be permanent COE sync once you align it with a potion until you switch floors or activate a shrine. But it doesn't line up a lot of the time, so there must be something else messing it up.
Click to expand...

Due to the current implementation of alignment logic is executed in combat class, as far as I can recall,
It may not be executed when doing navigation/avoidance (correct me if I am wrong)

1. Current implementation works only for 8 seconds of the belt
2. If you see the bombardment fall down on beginning of Holy then it is aligned
3. It's not easy to distinguish the difference between passive and active bombardments on Physical
 
I am curious if you have implemented the Laws of Hope - Wings of Angels for 50% movement speed or if you no longer plan to?

The reason I ask is many who run 70-76 speeds do not need the 10% damage given from Shield Glare and prefer the use of 50% MS.
It helps in the effort to go from elite to elite in order to make sure InGeom is up 24/7 if you have to go long distances between finding the next pack.

Also... so pissed I salvaged all of my 8s belts. Hmmm...

Thanks for building this thing by the way, Im gonna test it tonight.
 
TreeRex said:
I am curious if you have implemented the Laws of Hope - Wings of Angels for 50% movement speed or if you no longer plan to?

The reason I ask is many who run 70-76 speeds do not need the 10% damage given from Shield Glare and prefer the use of 50% MS.
It helps in the effort to go from elite to elite in order to make sure InGeom is up 24/7 if you have to go long distances between finding the next pack.

Also... so pissed I salvaged all of my 8s belts. Hmmm...

Thanks for building this thing by the way, Im gonna test it tonight.
Click to expand...

Laws of Hope has been added.
 
tbdf said:
Due to the current implementation of alignment logic is executed in combat class, as far as I can recall,
It may not be executed when doing navigation/avoidance (correct me if I am wrong)

1. Current implementation works only for 8 seconds of the belt
2. If you see the bombardment fall down on beginning of Holy then it is aligned
3. It's not easy to distinguish the difference between passive and active bombardments on Physical
Click to expand...

In your experience, is the 8s belt syncing well with "align potion with bombardment" ticked and increasing your clear speeds? I have some near perfect 6s belts and was wondering if it would be worth the switch to a non perfect 8s belt.
 
Powered said:
In your experience, is the 8s belt syncing well with "align potion with bombardment" ticked and increasing your clear speeds? I have some near perfect 6s belts and was wondering if it would be worth the switch to a non perfect 8s belt.
Click to expand...

I honestly think a 6s would be far better than an 8. You get 10 per minute with 6s vs 7 per minute with 8s. That is 3 bombardments you will miss out on. Plus if you have to use a potion if screws it all up. Just keep the 6s belt.
 
Seems with the new UI for Trinity is garbage. Set to not pick up crafting mats and it does plus this shoot move shit is getting really old...such a waste of time when no monsters in area...how dumb. Quest Tools set to level lowest gems but do you think it does....NOT. and the bot runs back to the start of a level alot of the times (not sure which one is at fault) but this is so bad now had to lower Grifts to 72....what a joke and now its only a 60% to complete...when i was running 74 Grifts and getting 70% completes and 73 Grifts where 98% to complete but now im over 2K paragon...so 75+ is where bot should be. Need an update to bot soooooooo...... bad
 
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