Out DPS'd by a player.

[Toney001]

Actually, the Bot you use does make a difference. Some CRs don't implicitly FrameLock every time they're ticked, so they run slower. Some do. LazyRaider, Tyrael, and RaidBot will automatically do this, regardless of the CR's setup, so you'll get the fastest possible speeds. That's most likely why you're seeing such slow speeds.

I've stated more than once in this thread that I used Tyrael with Framelock and TPS @ 60 (with PureRotation as the CR), so you can rule that out.

Also, my custom CRs hit CDs at "best times" (eg; will avoid popping certain CDs until lust/hero/timewarp, popping CDs at once for "big burst" depending on the fight, or waiting for specific trinket procs or buffs before popping CDs). Most public CRs are built to "appease" everyone. I write mine specifically for me, with zero support for other players.

I figured as much. If I had your knowledge/skills (you know, and still played), I'd write myself a full bossmod kind of CR and it'd customize it to the T.
I'm sure if anyone can pull this off, it's you.

I actually used to make my own custom CRs for some of my farming profiles (mostly for instance farming), but they were pretty basic, and were made to aid the bot in simple repetitive tasks.

Also, I was in a top-10 (US) guild from Vanilla through mid LK. That's about when I stopped playing until Cata. So again, you can argue your experience all you want.

I'm not arguing or trying to show off, but I can't take you seriously if you think dpsing while moving and properly managing cooldowns was hard in any way, or feel proud about top 100 parses, specially if someone with top 100 parses is among the top dpsers of your guild. No offense.
I believe you, I'm just not impressed, that's all.

Feel free to let me know what "caster" you are, and what your optimal rotation is, CD usage, etc. Be as "in depth" as possible, and I can throw you something together that will out DPS you 8/10 times. (Considering I probably don't raid on your class/spec, I can't guarantee to support all the boss mechanics)

I haven't played for over a year and a half. WoW is a glorified IM for me these days. I'm not gonna bother reading up on class changes and "getting back into it" just to test your ego). I already destroyed my eyesight by watching dot timers for years
I'm happy to agree to disagree, I don't care enough. I just like a friendly debate, which I thought this was. Clearly, I was wrong.

That said, if I ever get back into WoW, I'll hold you to this!

Instead of coming and complaining about things, simply make suggestions to the CR developers, or ask for features, etc. Chances are, they'll be more than happy to do what you ask for. But you have to remember; ask. Don't tell. PureRotation is one of the better DPS CRs we have right now. Singular is mostly a "use and go AFK" CR. It's meant for leveling, BGs, and farming. Some rotations work well for raiding, but that's not the main goal anymore.

I wasn't complaining, I thought this was a friendly debate so I offered my view on the topic at hand.
I apologize if I hurt your feelings, or your pride, in any way that might have led you to believe I was bitching. I honestly don't care as I don't play anymore other than tanking a 5 many every now and then, or levelling an alt with my girlfriend once a year.
When I still played I contributed a lot on different projects myself (one of which was the Unholy rotation CLU used in DS, that was far better than PQR at the time). I'd never demand anything from anyone, least of all a developer that gives away their spare time for free

Also, CLU and PureRotation may be written by the same people, but under the hood, they're quite different. I wrote the original Singular. And it's absolutely nothing like Ares. You see my point?

Yeah, I know, it was just weird that it was a regression (for Blood at least).

I whole-heatedly believe that you can make something that could outdps me, if you do it in a bossmod way, with very specific behavior and logic for whatever class I play and whatever gear I have.

 

[wulf]

EDIT: Just to give an HB vs HB example, up until the last patch, CLU was performing better for me as Blood than PureRotation, and both of them were made by Wulf, so you'd think they'd perform just as well.

Blood in PR didnt get any love until *well* after MoP release (only just recently actually). Currently, I doubt you would find much better..(and before its mentioned, yes PQR may DPS harder but I doubt very much it has the survivability of PR) if you do, *Give feedback* we cant get it right 100% of the time.

If you like the Combat Routine but it isn't performing quite to your standards, give constructive criticism back to the developer. Just about every criticism that gets made about PR - that is constructive - is investigated *fully* by our devs and worked on until it is right.

As for the argument about HB vs PQR, HB at this stage - with some tweaks - is more than capable of performing at PQR's level as Apoc has pointed out.

 

[Toney001]

Blood in PR didnt get any love until *well* after MoP release (only just recently actually). Currently, I doubt you would find much better..(and before its mentioned, yes PQR may DPS harder but I doubt very much it has the survivability of PR) if you do, *Give feedback* we cant get it right 100% of the time.

If you like the Combat Routine but it isn't performing quite to your standards, give constructive criticism back to the developer. Just about every criticism that gets made about PR - that is constructive - is investigated *fully* by our devs and worked on until it is right.

As for the argument about HB vs PQR, HB at this stage - with some tweaks - is more than capable of performing at PQR's level as Apoc has pointed out.

Oh I trust your work more than most people's! I just figured your starting point for PR would be the rotation you used in CLU, but I haven't really delved much into the code as I hardly ever play anymore.

My only observation (I don't like the word complaint for this) is that it HB+PR feels slower than PQR w/Rubim's profiles, and I don't know why. It's not about the routine, but the speed at which it's executed.
If I had any idea as to why that might be the case, or any suggestion to make, I'd be more than happy to do it as I've always done it.

<3

 

[Toney001]

Hey Apoc, I changed my mind. I have a couple weeks worth of free time while my gf finishes her finals, that I was gonna use to catch up on the latest patch of Football Manager 2013, but I can spare a few nights on this .

I certainly don't miss my life revolving around my raid schedule, but I do like me some competition.

If you're still up for it, let me know and we can talk the details. We can either do this at 85, or I can level my Shadow Priest to 90 first if you rather.

 

[wingsta]

Well I have many 90s thanks to HB and have tested a lot of profiles, I just wanted to point out from my experience its actually a bit of both.

I think PQR has a lot less lag than lazy rider and tyrael so hence it's quicker, the rest I agree is the cc I Iike HB don't get me wrong but the vast majority of cc's I use now when I'm controlling the toon are from PQR it for the most part always produces more dps for me.

Some HB routines do work better I.e tunaha's ones always out perform for me but I always thought routines like pure rotation was good until I tried PQR out and my destro warlock on the same boss would pump out nearly 20k dps more.

Try them out for yourself to see what gives you the better result as many of us can't write our own cc's like Apoc (yes I'm jelly lol). My problem with HB not allowing for paid routines not to be linked here is me as a newb can't seem to find out where to get them from. It's the main reason I started to search around and ended up finding PQR.

Also for newbs to HB like me PQR is awesome for pvp a lot of pvp based cc's that just aren't available at HB. If you like to arena and bg have a look at PQR you will not be dissapionted.

The lack of good unpaid cc's on HB I think is the main problem and as the devs won't allow paid ones for HB to be linked I think that's why it suffers. If anyone can pm me where I go to find good paid HB cc's that work pls let me know

 

[wingsta]

I laughed for a good 5 minutes. Thanks

Im happy for you I wasn't trying to complain about the ccs on HB forums there are good ones like superbad or tuahan's hunter cc but the vast majority of pve ones I have tried are doing less that their PQR counterparts, and as for pvp cc's on HB forget it. It was just what I have found and tested at any rate. I mean have a look at ownedcores profile section for cc's its substantially bigger and more in depth than HB's.

 

[tuanha]

Well I have many 90s thanks to HB and have tested a lot of profiles, I just wanted to point out from my experience its actually a bit of both.

I think PQR has a lot less lag than lazy rider and tyrael so hence it's quicker, the rest I agree is the cc I Iike HB don't get me wrong but the vast majority of cc's I use now when I'm controlling the toon are from PQR it for the most part always produces more dps for me.

Some HB routines do work better I.e tunaha's ones always out perform for me but I always thought routines like pure rotation was good until I tried PQR out and my destro warlock on the same boss would pump out nearly 20k dps more.

Try them out for yourself to see what gives you the better result as many of us can't write our own cc's like Apoc (yes I'm jelly lol). My problem with HB not allowing for paid routines not to be linked here is me as a newb can't seem to find out where to get them from. It's the main reason I started to search around and ended up finding PQR.

Also for newbs to HB like me PQR is awesome for pvp a lot of pvp based cc's that just aren't available at HB. If you like to arena and bg have a look at PQR you will not be dissapionted.

The lack of good unpaid cc's on HB I think is the main problem and as the devs won't allow paid ones for HB to be linked I think that's why it suffers. If anyone can pm me where I go to find good paid HB cc's that work pls let me know

I'm totally agree on PvE, well I have to spend weeks optimizing my CC to match XXX's Rubim Windwalker dps. His code is strait and simple (700 line only) because the other platform support it well. My CC need a lot more code with a lot of work around code to do the same thing.

Anyone try to code monk with HB will know, you will NEVER get correct data that the reason performance drop. You have 3 chi? HB saying you have only 2, you just use the proc? HB saying the proc still not used . The incorrect data value is the main reason HB CC can't match XXX in term of performance. (Unless u put a lot of work around code to fix it.)

If you don't believe me in incorrect data reading from HB, try a shadow priest CC, most of them will double cast Vampiric Touch a lot. That because after casting the 1st Vampiric Touch, HB data report the debuff not yet applied and CC cast it again. I just find out this on reworking my Shadow Priest and do a comparison test with other CC.

But HB also give devs more tool and they can do more, I PvP a lot and TBH, I can't find a XXX that match my hunter cc in term of PvP logic.

The tricks like auto trap after scatter shot/kill totems/intellisense rogue & druid to get them out of stealth... are not be seen in XXX (or I just can't fight the right one, correct me if im wrong)

 

[bambam922]

Also sorry for deleting you guys' well thought out posts, but all post with the program's name has been deleted.

 

[wingsta]

Well, I PvP a lot and TBH, I can't find a PQR that match my hunter cc in term of PvP logic.

The tricks like auto trap after scatter shot/kill totems/intellisense rogue & druid to get them out of stealth... are not be seen in PQR (or I just can't fight the right one, correct me if im wrong)

No argument from me tuanha hence why I said your cc's are one of the exceptions I have found. Remember this is just my personal experience. But other than your hunter cc you would have to admit there is very little to know other pvp based ones on HB. Either way I don't want to get into a whole thing or upset anyone I just posted what I had found by using the routines available.

 

[Toney001]

Also sorry for deleting you guys' well thought out posts, but all post with the program's name has been deleted.

You know... you could have just "censored" the name of the program instead

I laughed for a good 5 minutes. Thanks

While I believe Wingsta's statement is quite a stretch, you should be a bit more humble IMHO.
I spent an hour last night making PureRotation actually use Fire Mage cooldowns the way it's supposed to, and I can tell you 3-4 things that are wrong with the Shadow Priest rotation after testing it for an hour.

There's always room for improvement, don't get cocky.

If you don't believe me in incorrect data reading from HB, try a shadow priest CC, most of them will double cast Vampiric Touch a lot.

I have also noticed this.
There's a lot of workarounds that have to be implemented to make some things work like they should (though I can't say I haven't been able to do something I wanted to do yet).

I haven't tried any of Tuanha's CCs, but there's a fundamental truth in what a previous poster said about paid CCs:
In most cases, people that do free CCs do it as a hobby, and, rightfully, on their own time, and as such have less developement time and less testing time than anyone that actually makes money off them and has the motivation (or necessity, if it's a substantial part of their income) to spend more time on them.

I think it's great that people spend time to make stuff for others for free (Professionbuddy is the best thing that's happened to my WoW career since getting 8/8 Netherwind in Vanilla), but there's no reason to demonize or even antagonize the people that charge for their time (after all, we all get paid at our workplace, don't we?).

I think both free and paid CCs could, and should, co-exist for the good of the community.

 

[amputations]

Hi all
Just wanted to say, request some help on this issue i have. I have my BM hunter 493/493 and have reforged, gemmed and enchanted as per Mr robot. My question is when using different CC's and raid bots, WHY do players out dps me at the same level ish. I was under the impression a bot produces a perfect rotation, and on that note what is the current and best cc and raid bot to run it on?

Any good player can outperform a CR if the CR is being used sub-optimally, you will still have to have knowledge of your class and know how to best time CD's with procc's etc.

But if you're asking for advice on botbases, try Tyrael and put framelock on at 30tps and use that with a good CR.

 

[Aetheric]

Don't use Mr robot.

Look for addon called reforglite and download.

Askmrrobot is perfect for the casual user.

As Jandvia states, it also gems and enchants your items.
It even provides you with a shopping-list of what you need to buy.

Best-item per slot option etc.

Really, nothing wrong with Askmrrobot.

 

[Toney001]

Then where is your post at the Purerotation thread? Don't get cocky yourself, rather I despise people like yourself.. All these fancy words about testing and getting things to work and not a single post in the main thread about what is wrong and what is should've been doing instead.

I intended to, when I got back from work, as it was 2am in the morning by the time I was done, and just wanted to go to bed.
I apologize for being so selfish... I'm a despicable human being, indeed.

Off the top off my head, I fixed Alter Time from double casting (rendering it useless), Presence of Mind from not being used, and made combustion not being used off a tiny non crit ignite, but after a full cooldown burst phase consisting of:

Presence of Mind > Alter Time > Pyroblast > Pyroblast > Alter Time > Pyroblast > Pyroblast.

The three cooldowns allign perfectly, so it works out as a massive boost, and netted my mage a good 20% dps increase.

No they should not. It's like asking Linux (which is licensed under open source) about selling it for money after modding it some..

Well, I agree that I shouldn't charge for a minor fix to an already free CC, but it's my understanding that Tuanha's CCs (and I'm using him as an example because I've seen the PR people antagonizing him in his own thread) have been build from the ground up.

In the end, nobody's forcing anyone to buy anything. Why shouldn't people be allowed to choose?
As long as they have the ability to try out both CCs beforehand, where's the harm if someone likes Tuanha's CCs more than yours?

EDIT: PS. Please don't compare yourself to me, I'm not belittling anyone, unlike you. I've been very respectful throughout the whole thread.

 

[bambam922]

I restored the posts I deleted. Got yelled at.
In the past, PQR talk was not allowed.

I guess it changed and I didn't know.
Have fun!

 

[Drizzt1990]

I haven't played for over a year and a half. WoW is a glorified IM for me these days. I'm not gonna bother reading up on class changes and "getting back into it" just to test your ego). I already destroyed my eyesight by watching dot timers for years
I'm happy to agree to disagree, I don't care enough. I just like a friendly debate, which I thought this was. Clearly, I was wrong.

But you exactly that today PQR has a better peformance then HB... weird must be some kind of psych

 

[Toney001]

But you exactly that PQR has a better peformance then HB... weird must be some kind of psych

I thought it was fairly obvious that I meant played by hand, but evidently, it was not.

I honestly don't care as I don't play anymore other than tanking a 5 many every now and then, or levelling an alt with my girlfriend once a year.

^ this is a quote from that very same post.

In the past I've had HB perform better (and I've had my fair share of arguments on this with Sandman during DS), now I see BEEEEEEP perform better. Why? I honestly don't know, but I can see it actually executing actions faster, whatever the reason for this might be.

^ this is from the post before it. If you can't infer by this that I have obviously recently tried both, then I can't help you.

 

[Millz]

@Toney001

If you know of improvements to routines, then it's more beneficial to post in the related thread of what you believe could be changed, and then we'll fix them so that everyone can have the benefits. The CC dev's on this forum tend to spend a lot of time writing the routines, but we don't catch every eventuality, so feedback is critical to making something great. Just saying that something doesn't work so you had to spend hours fixing it doesn't help anyone (for instance my copy of mages is a lot different to that which is on the SVN, in preparation for Pure v2 - so when you need to update from SVN you'd have to re-do all of your changes).

This doesn't just apply to PureRotation though, I'm sure TuanHA and all of the other CC devs want the feedback too.

 

[Toney001]

@Toney001

If you know of improvements to routines, then it's more beneficial to post in the related thread of what you believe could be changed, and then we'll fix them so that everyone can have the benefits. The CC dev's on this forum tend to spend a lot of time writing the routines, but we don't catch every eventuality, so feedback is critical to making something great. Just saying that something doesn't work so you had to spend hours fixing it doesn't help anyone (for instance my copy of mages is a lot different to that which is on the SVN, in preparation for Pure v2 - so when you need to update from SVN you'd have to re-do all of your changes).

This doesn't just apply to PureRotation though, I'm sure TuanHA and all of the other CC devs want the feedback too.

I will, don't worry. Like I told the other, significantly less nice guy, it was really late at night, and I wanted to make a thorough post about what it is that I changed so you can judge whether or not it works or is worth posting.

I very much appreciate the work you guys do. The fact that I don't see a problem with paid and free CCs co-existing doesn't mean I don't think it's great what all developers that keep their stuff for free do (like I always did).

I'll make a post about it on the PR thread when I get back from work