Out DPS'd by a player.

[nigel]

Hi all
Just wanted to say, request some help on this issue i have. I have my BM hunter 493/493 and have reforged, gemmed and enchanted as per Mr robot. My question is when using different CC's and raid bots, WHY do players out dps me at the same level ish. I was under the impression a bot produces a perfect rotation, and on that note what is the current and best cc and raid bot to run it on?

 

[Cocaine]

Hi all
Just wanted to say, request some help on this issue i have. I have my BM hunter 493/493 and have reforged, gemmed and enchanted as per Mr robot. My question is when using different CC's and raid bots, WHY do players out dps me at the same level ish. I was under the impression a bot produces a perfect rotation, and on that note what is the current and best cc and raid bot to run it on?

This couldn't be farther from the truth as old, incomplete, and bug-ridden CCs will lower your DPS a lot. Even with the most refined bot base, perfected CC, optimized gear, no lag, etc. is the most you could ask for and still doesn't mean you'll come close to topping DPS charts with veteran raiders.

 

[oliver182]

Don't use Mr robot.

Look for addon called reforglite and download.

 

[UnicornFart]

Don't use Mr robot.

Look for addon called reforglite and download.

There's nothing wrong with Mr. Robot, as long as you edit your classes stat weights. IT not only optimizes reforges but also gems and enchants.5

 

[bambam922]

Heh, I laughed. Perfect routines will always do more dps than a "veteran raider"

While this may be more true of melee classes, the bot will have a tougher time keeping up while moving around, and also doing situational attacks.
Some abilities are better to use and cause more damage on the run than what a combat routine has programmed into it.

 

[osirislives]

Well, you will lose dps when the CC decides to interrupt, some CCs don't recognize procs, some CCs aren't optimized, some CCs don't use dps cooldowns on cd, the list just goes on and on. Also, some veteran raiders don't use the "approved" rotation, ie they have figured out something that works better for them.

 

[Apoc]

A "perfect" CR will always outperform a "human" raider. Plain and simple.

However, due to bugs, simple oversights, and the like, I don't think we have any "perfect" routines so far. We have things that may be close, but nothing is perfect.

If you're finding your DPS to be low, try another CR. Really that simple.

 

[buzzerbeater]

You are a hunter. Thats your Problem.

Nearly ever class has a higher dmg potential.

 

[Mario27]

try tuanha hunter cc you need to get his special edition it has evry spell in the custom class what is needed to use by a hunter. for survival mm and bm

 

[tuanha]

Fix for ya: Out DPS'd by a player who using better bot

What guaranty that the other guy don't use a better bot?

I mean there are a lot of WoW bot out there, not only HB and few other of them are amazing. Also there are few HB guy here develop really good CC but it private, who know?

And I'm agree with Apoc, there's no perfect CC yet. A perfect CC will out dps most player (except the very good one who know when to use cooldown to get the most damage done)

 

[TheScorpionsFan]

It`s normal to be OutDps'ed as long as the other person does a better rotation, keeps CD's when bosses take more dmg or they line up their cooldowns with bloodlust/heroism,etc.. There are many reasons a CR can't beat a player.
And in my humble opinion, this game is not only about DPS'ing, it`s mostly about surviving, positioning yourself so that you can DPS as powerful as you can while you take the least damage in a raid group. Tbh, I used some combat routines on some classes just to see how they do the rotation etc, and I learned from it. I must admit i learned to play holy paladin thanks to tuanha`s public CR, but that doesn`t mean i can't do a better job without it... For me: Bots are best for LFR, Questing,Leveling and learning basic knoweldge about classes thanks to the CR's. If you wanna perform better, you need to step up your game and not rely on a CR.

 

[Toney001]

No offense to anybody, but I doubt anyone here has played at a world class level to actually know what such players push.

Like Bambam said, it's highly unlikely for a "perfect" CR to ever exist.
Sure, you can perfectly execute a routine on a Patchwerk kind of fight, but afaik (I stopped raiding after Cataclysm) those are becoming more and more rare.
There's many times in which you need to "move from the script" and the judgement of a world class player (or just a really good player) will outweigh the bot.

But above all else, the bot is plain slow.
I'm not even going to compare it with a human, but has anybody tried PQR lately? Well, I have, and it's quite ahead in terms of speed.
I have a relatively powerful PC, and even with Tyrael at 60fps framlocked (using PureRotation), I squeeze more dps out of my DK with PQR (my IL is pretty low, as I barely play anymore, but it's a good 10-15% difference).
And not because PR has the routine wrong, but because PQR moves that much faster.

I've been a long time advocate of HB being better than PQR back in Cataclysm (the dps felt on par), but when I fire it up now I can see it being way faster than HB these days, though I dunno what else has changed.

In any case, back to human vs bot...
With HB's current rotations you'll be able to outdps mediocre players, but a good player will likely beat you.
Look no further than yourselves. Can you outdps your bot? I know I can.

 

[Toney001]

Oh boy. You're wrong in so many ways

Noted I can't link the WoL logs of the rogue (combat), but I just wanted to let you know that HB with caching is actually faster than PQR.
It all depends how the rotation is built up, simple,clean and caching auras / spellcooldowns is faster than PQR. I just can't link evidence to this because of World of Logs shows the player name because of the top rankings.

Nor can I link the rankings of the Unholy DK. This is both Normal and Heroic modes of 10man

I'm not wrong, I just posted MY experience. It's not subjective, it's not up for discussion, because it's mine. Which doesn't mean it'll be the same for everyone.
I've been using Wulf's CCs since he had his lone DK one (Deathstrike), and when he first started CLU, I made the Unholy rotation, and at the time it performed better for me than PQR, but these days PQR performs better for me than PureRotation (I've only tested PR because I assume it's the best CR), again, keyword(s) here being FOR ME.

That said, I've only botted melee classes, because I don't particularly enjoy them (I've only raided progression as a caster, mostly Mage and Shadow Priest depending on what we were).

Now, about Bot vs Player, I stand by what I said: Good player > bot > mediocre player.
I don't doubt you can parse with a bot (I've seen many mediocre players rank due to pure inertia), but unless you consistently rank top 50 on every single fight, then, with all due respect, I don't care.

 

[Toney001]

Lol not up for discussion? You were implying this : But above all else, the bot is plain slow.

That's what I see on the screen (which is the first thing I noticed when I tried PQR), but if you know how to make the bot faster than PQR, I'm all ears.
I have an i7 3770k, 12 GB Gskill DDR3 1600, Radeon 7850, and am running PureRotation on Tyrael @ 60 FPS w/Framelock, but I don't see what I could possibly be doing to "slowing" HB down (maybe even more TPS? I have it set to 60 because I have my framerate limited with v-sync, otherwise my monitor goes crazy).

 

[Apoc]

FYI, I'm in a top 30 world ranked guild, in the progression group. I run both as the MT and one of the top 5 DPS in the guild. All via being lazy and letting HB handle fighting for me. All I do is move and target. (And taunt...)

I've had consistent top-100 parses on WoL as DPS (tanking never really gets you decent parses for obvious reasons). So, your experience may be your experience, but it's not everyone's.

Playing manually as DPS, I get ~15k less DPS simply due to active time being lower as you can't possibly DPS and move at the same time, with the same speed as the bot. Especially as melee. (Nor can you pop CDs with near-perfect timing as a human)

I still have not seen PQR beat any CR I've written for myself. In fact, none have come close. (There's almost a 50k DPS disparity between PQR and my personal CR for warrior's right now.)

 

[buzzerbeater]

FYI, I'm in a top 30 world ranked guild, in the progression group. I run both as the MT and one of the top 5 DPS in the guild. All via being lazy and letting HB handle fighting for me. All I do is move and target. (And taunt...)

I've had consistent top-100 parses on WoL as DPS (tanking never really gets you decent parses for obvious reasons). So, your experience may be your experience, but it's not everyone's.

Playing manually as DPS, I get ~15k less DPS simply due to active time being lower as you can't possibly DPS and move at the same time, with the same speed as the bot. Especially as melee. (Nor can you pop CDs with near-perfect timing as a human)

I still have not seen PQR beat any CR I've written for myself. In fact, none have come close. (There's almost a 50k DPS disparity between PQR and my personal CR for warrior's right now.)

We should clone you and make you a full time CR DEV too.




OT: A perfect CR is possible. WoW is a number game and there is no one better than a Computer in a number game. (Talking about Rotation/DPS)

 

[Toney001]

So, your experience may be your experience, but it's not everyone's.

I'm not wrong, I just posted MY experience. It's not subjective, it's not up for discussion, because it's mine. Which doesn't mean it'll be the same for everyone.

^ BEAT YOU TO THIS <3

I have never raided progression with HB, as I quit raiding immediately after we got Heroic Ragnaros (which, not to give much away, was a top ~20 kill), and that was before I even got HB, but I have played anywhere from world top 10 to 50 since Vanilla so I can at least offer my view as a player.

What I can tell you, is that even though I'm only a casual these days (if that), as a caster, I've yet to find a CR that beats me. I can't speak for melee as I never liked them, and only started playing them thanks to HB, but I have never played them by hand.

You are 10x the coder anyone else here is (not to mention you're the freaking bot's maker, so you know it inside out), so I can definitely believe that you've made some really specifically customized awesome CR, but public CRs (I don't know what's your experience with them) just aren't on par with a really good player.
To you, dpsing while moving or pushing cooldowns at the right time might be hard, but it's actually what makes the difference between a good and a bad player. Any idiot can memorize a list of actions, but judgement comes from experience and skill, not an EJ forums post.

So, let me rephrase what I said earlier: Good player > public CR powered bot > mediocre player.

Now, between HB and PQR, It's been said before, I don't see why one would be faster than the other for any other reason than the routines/profiles.
In the past I've had HB perform better (and I've had my fair share of arguments on this with Sandman during DS), now I see PQR perform better. Why? I honestly don't know, but I can see it actually executing actions faster, whatever the reason for this might be.

EDIT: Just to give an HB vs HB example, up until the last patch, CLU was performing better for me as Blood than PureRotation, and both of them were made by Wulf, so you'd think they'd perform just as well.
I think it all comes down to efficiency. Just like others said, people bloat CRs with features just because they can, and that might be slowing them down, one millisecond at a time.

 

[Dreadlord]

lol.. Your problem is... You didn't use the LazyRaider, That's by far the best dps I have ever seen. I'm pulling 3x my normal dps just running it cause it uses all my cd's when I normally only use half... racials etc.. Use LazyRaider and come back and tell us if there's a person out dpsing you outside of being over geared...

 

[Toney001]

lol.. Your problem is... You didn't use the LazyRaider, That's by far the best dps I have ever seen. I'm pulling 3x my normal dps just running it cause it uses all my cd's when I normally only use half... racials etc.. Use LazyRaider and come back and tell us if there's a person out dpsing you outside of being over geared...

Buddy, LazyRaider is a botbase, not a routine.
And just because the bot does more dps than you doesn't mean it's better than every human on planet earth. Just means you're bad.

No offense, really.

 

[Apoc]

Buddy, LazyRaider is a botbase, not a routine.
And just because the bot does more dps than you doesn't mean it's better than every human on planet earth. Just means you're bad.

No offense, really.

Actually, the Bot you use does make a difference. Some CRs don't implicitly FrameLock every time they're ticked, so they run slower. Some do. LazyRaider, Tyrael, and RaidBot will automatically do this, regardless of the CR's setup, so you'll get the fastest possible speeds. That's most likely why you're seeing such slow speeds.

Also, my custom CRs hit CDs at "best times" (eg; will avoid popping certain CDs until lust/hero/timewarp, popping CDs at once for "big burst" depending on the fight, or waiting for specific trinket procs or buffs before popping CDs). Most public CRs are built to "appease" everyone. I write mine specifically for me, with zero support for other players.

Also, I was in a top-10 (US) guild from Vanilla through mid LK. That's about when I stopped playing until Cata. So again, you can argue your experience all you want.

Feel free to let me know what "caster" you are, and what your optimal rotation is, CD usage, etc. Be as "in depth" as possible, and I can throw you something together that will out DPS you 8/10 times. (Considering I probably don't raid on your class/spec, I can't guarantee to support all the boss mechanics)

Instead of coming and complaining about things, simply make suggestions to the CR developers, or ask for features, etc. Chances are, they'll be more than happy to do what you ask for. But you have to remember; ask. Don't tell. PureRotation is one of the better DPS CRs we have right now. Singular is mostly a "use and go AFK" CR. It's meant for leveling, BGs, and farming. Some rotations work well for raiding, but that's not the main goal anymore.


Also, CLU and PureRotation may be written by the same people, but under the hood, they're quite different. I wrote the original Singular. And it's absolutely nothing like Ares. You see my point?