content to search waives 4th amendment rights.

[ryftobuddy]

but if you say "no" dosen´t make this you suspicious -> he will also search ?

Saying no means you don't get access to their product, so there's nothing suspicious for them to search. You simply can't do anything with the product.

 

[frosticus]

i would love to learn about EU privacy laws. can anyone post the actual law, or judge rulings that show modern computer search articles.

this thread is directed towards US laws. as i am an American, i cannot begin to speak for EU.

this is an open invite for info on EU. please post reference and not just person anecdotes.

 

[Zardoz1]

EUR-Lex - 31995L0046 - EN

Have fun.

 

[Deathshiver]

but when you give consent to search, you waive those rights. most people do this freely because they have nothing to hide. blizz players do this because they heard something from a bro, that heard it from a dude, that knew a blizz employee and now they come here qtf like its nothing.

if an officer stops you. he has no right to search your car unless he suspects a crime. then right before you leave, he asks you 'would you mind if i looked inside your car?'

you have the right to say yes or no. if you say yes, you can search, you waive your rights to protection from illegal search and seizure. basically giving him a verbal search warrant.

An officer works with law enforcement and is backed by the government. Blizzard is a private business. That's not quite a valid comparison. It's one thing to waive your 4th amendment to the government, and another to waive it to another citizen. There is a lot of evidence being tossed around, but I'm not 100% sure it actually translates to this specific scenario (It could! But I personally don't see a solid connection just yet).

With your original post on AOL, the information on child pornography was actually stored ON AOL's servers AND the activity was criminal. They weren't scanning foreign computers, the information was going through their own servers. Neither of these actually apply to Blizzard's scenario. They would have had to have scanned outside of information that they owned, and then found and used information that was NOT illegal for a purpose other than prosecuting in criminal court. These are pretty key differences, and I don't actually think a judge would have ruled the same way. It's important to keep in mind that this was also a criminal court, not a civil one.

The location of the information (being stored on their own services or not) is of particular importance. It limits the potential data to things that they can reasonably expect to go through their services. As an example, imagine that a government worker plays WoW on a government PC containing access to secret information. Even though that government worker agreed to the ToU, he didn't actually have rights to agree on behalf of the government. As a result, Blizzard then scans a government PC which touches sensitive, secret information. That's illegal on Blizzards part, even though it was technically the fault of the government worker. Had Blizzard only been scanning information on their own servers, as in AOLs case, they would be limiting the information they were scanning to things they could reasonably, and legally, scan. Invasively looking through foreign PC for ALL kinds of information, and only looking through information that the end user sends you (as in AOL's case) are VERY different.

The real question that I have yet to see a solid answer to is whether it's actually possible to waive an amendment right to another citizen of the United States with equal rights as you. If so, which amendments are waive-able? If Blizzard asked me to waive my right to free speech, could they record my microphone while I played the game and ban me if I spoke badly of them? Obviously they wouldn't, but would it be possible?

 

[frosticus]

@deathshiver

i welcome your comments and would love to discuss this at great lengths. i think this falls into the civil vs the criminal and i think we can waive any right. you mentioned the right to speech.

while you have the right to free speech, it may not mean what you think. free speech doesnt mean i can stand in a theater and yell FIRE. i cant stand on a plane and yell BOMB. there are no laws says you cant say the words 'fire' or 'bomb' yet we give up these rights when we put ourselves in specific situations. take the Terms for instance.

B. Rules Related to "Chat" and Interaction With Other Users. Communicating in-game with other Users and Blizzard representatives, whether by text, voice or any other method, is an integral part of the Game and the Service and is referred to here as "Chat." When engaging in Chat, you may not:
(i) Transmit or post any content or language which, in the sole and absolute discretion of Blizzard, is deemed to be offensive, including without limitation content or language that is unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, hateful, sexually explicit, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable, nor may you use a misspelling or an alternative spelling to circumvent the content and language restrictions listed above;

(ii) Carry out any action with a disruptive effect, such as intentionally causing the Chat screen to scroll faster than other users are able to read, or setting up macros with large amounts of text that, when used, can have a disruptive effect on the normal flow of Chat;

(iii) Disrupt the normal flow of dialogue in Chat or otherwise act in a manner that negatively affects other users including without limitation posting commercial solicitations and/or advertisements for goods and services available outside of the World of Warcraft universe;

(iv) Sending repeated unsolicited or unwelcome messages to a single user or repeatedly posting similar messages in a Chat area, including without limitation continuous advertisements to sell goods or services;

(v) Communicate or post any user's personal information in the Game, or on websites or forums related to the Game, except that a user may communicate his or her own personal information in a private message directed to a single user;

(vi) Harass, threaten, stalk, embarrass or cause distress, unwanted attention or discomfort to any user of the Game;

(vii) Participate in any action that, in the sole and absolute opinion of Blizzard, results or may result in an authorized user of the Game being "scammed" or defrauded out of gold, weapons, armor, or any other items that user has earned through authorized game play in the Game;

(viii) Communicate directly with players who are playing characters aligned with the opposite faction (e.g. Horde communicating with Alliance or vice versa); or

(ix) Impersonate any real person, including without limitation any "game master" or any other Blizzard agent or employee, nor may you communicate in the Game in any way designed to make others believe that your message constitutes a server message or was otherwise posted by any Blizzard agent or employee.

how many times do we agree to limit our free speech in that passage. ofc there is no legal ramifications if we break this agreement. we arent talking about law. we are talking about adults agreeing to cooperate with rules set forth by the business.
funny that i mention adults when so many children play this game, amirite...

You represent that you are an adult in your country of residence. You agree to these Terms of Use on behalf of yourself and, at your discretion, for one (1) minor child for whom you are a parent or guardian and whom you have authorized to play the Game using the license granted to you.

from section 3. you have to have your parent click agree if you are a minor. breaking this simple rule here can result in being banned.

lets keep this on the civil side as far as liability. since this is a citizen vs a company.

i download an antivirus program. it states in their Terms:

you agree that you will not use competitors programs and we ask to scan your ram and processes to do our job and to confirm or deny some random bit of information. if we find a specific bit of information, such as a competitors program, we feel like we can no longer do business.----im making up the text, i can look up specific examples in a bit.

you click agree because of course you want to use the software.

the software does exactly what you agreed it would do. it finds out you cheated and used someone elses program. and as per your agreement the contract is broken.

the software scans your whole computer.

this program scans outside its own dedicated mem space because you gave it permission

no laws were broken

yet you agreed to the terms and your contract is cancelled.

this is pretty straight forward stuff here.

you agree to follow the rules, you break the rules, your service is terminated.

you ask Bill to come paint the inside of my shed.
Bill says, 'i hate gophers. im not painting if there are gophers'
Bill says, 'you need to pay me a deposit, and if there are gophers, im leaving with your non-refundable deposit'
Bill walks into the shed, sees gophers running from BEHIND the shed and leaves.
and like a dumbshit, you run Yelp and give Bill a bad review because he had no right to see the gophers because they were out of his area assigned to him.

 

[jsimmons10]

My fear is how far will this go? We sing an agreement to alow them to do this but what if they are gathering more then needed with out telling us? What if they found something they shouldn't and reported it to the government or something ? blizzard could have full view of everything on your computer and they wouldn't tell you then next thing you know nsa will force blizzard to hand over all info gained. Just like they did with verizon

 

[frosticus]

unfortunately, blizzard is required by law to report any criminal activity.

you need to take this argument to the NSA forums because it has nothing to do with blizzard. and if its that big of a fear, dont put yourself in the position to be spied upon by playing a game.

and remember a wise NSA man once said 'if you arent doing anything wrong, you have nothing to fear'

and tbh, google knows more about me than the NSA. no stopping that at all.

 

[YippySkippy]

I myself will be going into my bank this week and having a chat about the situation, I pay one month at a time, i accept that i have had full access to the service for the months i paid, What i dont accept is Blizzard, A fucking game developer, Can just Freeze hundreds/thousands £'s of what is basicly financial assets, The services paid for with real money and now we dont have access too, Paid char boosts, Mounts and pets from the "Store" Gold purchased with real money in the form of wow tokens, the second Blizzard put £$ on mounts,pets,characters and Gold, Afaik those things stopped being apart of the account that they "own" and became Personal, Financial assets, i cant see any lawful way they can freeze these assets.

I am liking the nail your hammer hit right there!

 

[frosticus]

Section 4

All rights and title in and to the Service (including without limitation any user accounts, titles, computer code, themes, objects, characters, character names, stories, dialogue, catch phrases, locations, concepts, artwork, animations, sounds, musical compositions, audio-visual effects, methods of operation, moral rights, any related documentation, “applets,” transcripts of the chat rooms, character profile information, recordings of games) are owned by Blizzard or its licensors. The Game and the Service are protected by United States and international laws, and may contain certain licensed materials in which Blizzard’s licensors may enforce their rights in the event of any violation of this Agreement.

you purchased the right to see and use the items with an account which blizz retains ownership. they retain ownership of every single aspect of the game. even your mounts.

Section 8

Blizzard does not recognize the transfer of World of Warcraft Accounts or BNET Accounts (each an “Account”). You may not purchase, sell, gift or trade any Account, or offer to purchase, sell, gift or trade any Account, and any such attempt shall be null and void. Blizzard owns, has licensed, or otherwise has rights to all of the content that appears in the Game. You agree that you have no right or title in or to any such content, including without limitation the virtual goods or currency appearing or originating in the Game, or any other attributes associated with any Account. Blizzard does not recognize any purported transfers of virtual property executed outside of the Game, or the purported sale, gift or trade in the “real world” of anything that appears or originates in the Game. Accordingly, you may not sell in-game items or currency for “real” money, or exchange those items or currency for value outside of the Game.

sorry bro, thought you read that already. you did agree to it didnt you?

 

[Senator Palpatine]

Everytime something like this happens the armchair lawyers and armchair legal professionals come out. love it

 

[frosticus]

Everyone agreed to read and understand it before playing the game. now they come here guessing what the Terms say.

do you think companies pay tons of money to lawyers to make this shit up? or to protect their ass when dumbshit try to cheat them.

know the risk. why would anyone go into this blindly and bitch when they got caught violating rules they were too lazy to read.

 

[Senator Palpatine]

has nothing to do with armchair lawyers, i did not create any of this information. YOU agreed to read and understand it before playing the game.

Never said you did, nor did I single you out. Don't be so defensive if what I said isn't true to you.

 

[frosticus]

Never said you did, nor did I single you out. Don't be so defensive if what I said isn't true to you.

yeh, i didnt mean that to sound like i was being shitty to you personally. just trying to enlighten people a little. there are too many people making blind accusations and just guessing. im trying to post information straight from the source. showing its not just my opinion.

sorry if i sounded gruff towards you S.P.

 

[Senator Palpatine]

yeh, i didnt mean that to sound like i was being shitty to you personally. just trying to enlighten people a little. there are too many people making blind accusations and just guessing. im trying to post information straight from the source. showing its not just my opinion.

sorry if i sounded gruff towards you S.P.

I understand! Tone can be hard over the internet, people making blind accusations and just guessing is what I am mostly referring to.

 

[frosticus]

im surprised at the number of people who 'saw it in chat so it must be true' and then repeat that info instead of actually researching the subject.

and when it comes down to it, in a battle between a company that employs a team of lawyers and random forum posters. ill bet on the lawyers every single time.

even HB hired a team of lawyers when they fought blizz.

lawyers are the kings of the trolls. they have the ability to argue both sides, convince you either way, and go away with no guilt. AND they get paid to do it, what a wonderful job that would be.

 

[Terrif]

i think the thing people are forgetting is blizzard is still a company. we are all butt hurt cause we got banned so theres all these tin hats out and yet i think the best answer can be found when we put our attitudes and emotions away from getting caught and look at blizzard as what they are, a company that only NEEDS to worry about their bottom line. not that community, not the botters, not the state of the game. those are all sub categories of the bottom line so yes they are related but they are not enough to determine blizzards actions and dictate what they do.

 

[frosticus]

Hello Terrif, id like to take the time to welcome you to the buddyforums!! you got here just in time to experience this upheaval in our little community. Sorry for that, wish our timing could have been better.

But im not even sure what you are responding to. this thread is a discussion about whether or not Americans can waive their 4th amendment right by giving written consent.
Feel free to chime in on our discussion subject, or to join one of the other 'tinfoil hat' threads that are popping up.

 

[YippySkippy]

**Blizzard owns, has licensed, or otherwise has rights to all of the content that appears in the Game. You agree that you have no right or title in or to any such content, including without limitation the virtual goods or currency appearing or originating in the Game, or any other attributes associated with any Account.**

Honestly at the time I didn't read just clicked and played. too long.

And as you stated: do you think companies pay tons of money to lawyers to make this shit up? or to protect their ass when dumbshit try to cheat them.

I "dumbshit" lol am not a lawyer hence why I just did click and play. Know very well why lawyers are involved in writing agreements. so it can be written so confusing and lengthy so that common folk like myself due just that.

I was just understanding this thought:
the second Blizzard put £$ on mounts,pets,characters and Gold, Afaik those things stopped being apart of the account that they "own" and became Personal, Financial assets, i cant see any lawful way they can freeze these assets.

and asking didn't blizzard go against there own agreement:
Blizzard does not recognize any purported transfers of virtual property executed outside of the Game, or the purported sale, gift or trade in the “real world” of anything that appears or originates in the Game. Accordingly, you may not sell in-game items or currency for “real” money, or exchange those items or currency for value outside of the Game.

but then again it is their game and say they can change the agreement at anytime and we have consented to that change

I guess my purchase of the use of level jump and or mounts being an asset is the same as my asset of purchase of a 12 pack of beer, enjoyed for a little bit but eventually pissed down the drain.

no hard feelings, not mad, I accept my consequences. just reading along and if a possible loop hole open to possibility in the use of.

example: right turn prohibited at intersection 2nd and A. so I go to 2nd and B turn left, then left at B and 1st, then again at 1st and A. therefore I have gotten my travel route, just had to go around the prohibition.

 

[frosticus]

many of us, myself included, clicked to play.

I was just understanding this thought:
the second Blizzard put £$ on mounts,pets,characters and Gold, Afaik those things stopped being apart of the account that they "own" and became Personal, Financial assets, i cant see any lawful way they can freeze these assets.

this is much like a TCG card. in card form, the card has monetary value, and can be traded and sold out of game. once the card is scratched and redeemed ingame, it becomes a pixel and part of an account owned by blizzard. you can still trade the item ingame, but it loses its monetary value and becomes a blizzard owned pixel.

once the item becomes ones and zeros, blizz owns them.

you buy a car.
you are making payments
you paint the car
you fail to pay
your car gets taken away
the paint is now property of the car owner.

its an example, maybe not a very good one. but easy to understand the idea.

 

[Girainha]

I really think i can win a case against blizz here im my country.
But i know blizzard will simply ignore our jurisdiction and refuse to comply. The judge will get pissed and fix daily fine, and then i'll ask for some more extreme measures like block the country access to their services.

But i think every wow player here will come after me, if i manage to pull something like that.

I saw some cases off the courts issuing orders to ISP's to block access to some services, cause the companys failed to comply the orders.

I want to know, you guys really think it worth fight in legal courts over this ?