BG buddies overpopulating battlegrounds

[kayes]

Community wanted a better BG bot, which reacts to situations, and they got it. What happened after BGBuddy's release is that people botting in BGs have been increased (We also made a jump on sales, thus we have more BG botters). BGBuddy is a king while there is only a few in a bg but things get loose when the majority is the bots.

I've experienced similar situations myself and I'm aware of the problem. I will see what i can do about that in coming weeks.

That is spot on regarding the situation of BGBuddy. Pirox going down, suddenly the majority of the players is HB bot's in BG's.

The most important thing in the evolution of BGBuddy have to be a random timer when the bot reacts to situations. This is the "bot" part that is too static. Something happends, all boots react at the same time. They do take different routes, but they react at the exactly same time.

Another important thing is to maybe expand what you would like the bot to do in the BG as mentioned. Sort of a task system.

You have done a lot of good stuff with this bot Raphus, sadly it seems like BGbuddy will be in constant need of love since it can never become perfect in the way that other people who bot can't spot your bot because it is so humanlike.

 

[Apoc]

Alright, let me put this down in a proper form (and yes, it may seem a bit "rude" to customers, but it has to be said)

BGBuddy may take the same "paths" (randomized a bit), however this is the way the majority of the customer base wants it. If we were to force it to take very long paths (say, around the other way to blacksmith, instead of over the bridge), then we'd be inundated with bug reports about it taking a "longer" path. What was a feature, is now a bug.

If we add a random timer to wait before reacting to some flag cap, etc, then we'll start receiving bug reports about the bot "not doing anything when X happens". Again, a feature is now a bug.

We have to walk a very fine line, between feature-set, and the ability to maintain it. If we add too many features, users see a good majority of them as "bugs" (which actually are not). If we have too many things, we can't maintain it with any form of decent quality, so whats the point of the feature in the first place?

Also, on the point of "logic"; I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Its easy to explain some bit of logic, however, putting it in a form where the computer can actually execute that logic, is a completely different story. There are many "little" things that most people don't even think about, but do subconsciously, that need to be accounted for. (How often do you do a quick strafe left/right to avoid something, or cancel a spell, or switch targets, or hell, even decide where to go, even if it might not be optimal *right now*)

As raphus said, there are just simply more bots out there now. And a lot more "greedy" botters. It also doesn't help that HB is incredibly stable now, and allows people to bot for days on end. There will be more botters, there's nothing anybody can do about that, short of HB shutting down.

If you all want, we can remove the ability to use plugins, bots, CCs, profiles, etc, and force you to use exactly what we put in the bot, and nothing else. Or, you can understand that we make things customizable to avoid the problem with 10k+ people using the same exact profile. We allow you to move the hotspots in BGBuddy. Do it, or stop complaining that you're standing on top of everyone else using the default profile.

 

[Cukie]

BGBuddy may take the same "paths" (randomized a bit), however this is the way the majority of the customer base wants it. If we were to force it to take very long paths (say, around the other way to blacksmith, instead of over the bridge), then we'd be inundated with bug reports about it taking a "longer" path. What was a feature, is now a bug.

My problem with this statement is that it does not seem to be what actually happens. Hypothetically, if you had 4 bots on BS in AB, and the bots decide they need/want to go to LM, all 4 bots are going to take the exact same path. That is my problem. Yes, you can move the BG hotspots, but that has never been my issue. It is the pathing in between each said hotspot that the conga line happens. I am not a coder, or a programmer, but only a customer so I do not have a fix or answer. I am simply relaying the frustration from a customer point of view. If there was some way to add the ability to randomize the normal pathing to and from each hotspot, even 2-3 yards either direction, it would make this infinitely better, and much less "botlike". Everyone understands that it will never be perfect, it is not a human after all. However, when such a massive amounts of customers are voicing their concerns, it should be paid attention to.

 

[Dre]

Like most people said I noticed a huge increase in BG bots, but im still having fun with it.

I love going into a BG with at least 5+ other suspected bots.. im just sitting here watching while some moron in BG chat is yelling "dont go that way you noob's get this!" and slowly over the time of the BG the guy will go into an insane bi-polar psychological meltdown just because the bots wont do as he says nor respond to him.

People like options. If they expanded HB/BGBuddy to have a sub menu on various tweeks like cap flag, no cap flag.. whatever It will help, BUT, reading the court stuff I understand why they would want to focus on other projects until better news about WOW comes around.

 

[Iths]

Like most people said I noticed a huge increase in BG bots, but im still having fun with it.

I love going into a BG with at least 5+ other suspected bots.. im just sitting here watching while some moron in BG chat is yelling "dont go that way you noob's get this!" and slowly over the time of the BG the guy will go into an insane bi-polar psychological meltdown just because the bots wont do as he says nor respond to him.

People like options. If they expanded HB/BGBuddy to have a sub menu on various tweeks like cap flag, no cap flag.. whatever It will help, BUT, reading the court stuff I understand why they would want to focus on other projects until better news about WOW comes around.

Best post iv read all week made my day had a good laugh cause that is exactly what happends in BG when on dude claming he is the best and he is pro and every one has to follow his commands that is SOOOOO hilarious when the rage comes!!!

Keep on botting fellow buddys i have no problem with the bots in BG i just think there is room for improvement

 

[Venus112]

I am guessing that some of what people would want is to use some different meshes.
Always seems to use the same meshes for traveling to spots, meaning me and all other bots I see end up taking the exact same path. And that's not something we really can change by editing the profiles...

 

[Cukie]

I am guessing that some of what people would want is to use some different meshes.
Always seems to use the same meshes for traveling to spots, meaning me and all other bots I see end up taking the exact same path. And that's not something we really can change by editing the profiles...

EXACTLY! My apologies if what I was saying was taken as something else, or my verbiage wasn't correct, but this is EXACTLY what i meant by different paths.

 

[Filmfilm]

I often see botters, while PvPing or GB2. I usually whisper them and say something like this "Ah so you are enjoying farming in Vashj too? I love the scenery here!".

80% I get a reply within a couple of minutes.
So most botters on my server watch their bot as it go, or have some sort of monitoring going on.

On topic of your question:

I was in BoG. I saw 6 ally standing around LH flag. In a circle. Doing nothing. Rogues were unstealthed. So when I approach to see. All 6 of them go for me at the same time. So funny. Everyone else in the BG calls them out as a bot though.
I don't feel it's safe to use anymore, when there are so many obvious botters.

 

[Hawker]

We have 3 ideas how to manage this.

One is based on revising BG logic based on lots of bots.
One is based on a throttle so that in mixed mode, you only enter PVP at intervals of your choice. As it stands now, mixed Gathering/PVP works out as 100% PVP so adding the timer option will improve the bot and reduce the numbers in the BGs at any one time.
A third is to remove the ability to do random battlegrounds and the 10 man battlegrounds. That means the botters will be able to choose the bigger battlegrounds where they actually are useful to the team.

I would love to hear more ideas. Please post your suggestions.

 

[white_boy8869]

I wanted to say that I LOVE the idea of randomizing the bots choices/actions for whether or not to attack defend etc. I wish it could be an "option" not hard coded. I love the features of different options honorbuddy offers.

I have been using bots since glider, macro goblin, pirox, and now HB. I've never had a problem botting. With players or game management staff.

The "change the paths" or "change the hotspots yourself" are both valid and to be honest I have went through the guides section and maybe I missed them, but if there were resources or guides on HOW to do that stuff I would be constantly doing it. I look at the XML files but I'm not REALLY sure what I'm looking at. I'm not really sure if I change something's value if it will work at all. The wiki is half done and has been for who knows how long.
If there was support material written, I would donation cash to the maker, if there were more apps like the map generator by swiney and his team, I'd donate. If there were more options and profile making tools built in to HB like there was with glider I'd PURCHASE it. (the upgraded options)

These are just my thoughts an opinions. I have a lot of problems with the bot, probably bc I'm fkn retarded, (ie can NOT find a rogue cc that utilizes leveling effectively, (I'd pay for that too lol))

But on another level I enjoy what HB does offer and I appreciate all the work that has went into it, otherwise I never would have spent the euro for 6 lifetime or elite keys.

 

[wownerds]

A third is to remove the ability to do random battlegrounds and the 10 man battlegrounds. That means the botters will be able to choose the bigger battlegrounds where they actually are useful to the team.

Not really an option, people will end up in 15 bots vs 15 bots teams in AB.

 

[Dre]

We have 3 ideas how to manage this.

One is based on revising BG logic based on lots of bots.
One is based on a throttle so that in mixed mode, you only enter PVP at intervals of your choice. As it stands now, mixed Gathering/PVP works out as 100% PVP so adding the timer option will improve the bot and reduce the numbers in the BGs at any one time.
A third is to remove the ability to do random battlegrounds and the 10 man battlegrounds. That means the botters will be able to choose the bigger battlegrounds where they actually are useful to the team.

I would love to hear more ideas. Please post your suggestions.

Well option 1 seems to depend more on coding time and I would like to know more specific the outcome will be.

Option 2 looks good to me, when you exit a battleground you have a timer before you go into the next. But in the end your going to have less HP's, more nodes but the BG play will still be the same.

3rd to remove the 10 mans and randoms could end up in longer wait times, you will also be forcing more bot's in fewer battlegrounds which could go horribly wrong.

For now all I can think of is let the person be able to modify their own bot, which should already be possible.

 

[Obliv]

Flag Carrying Maps: Obviously we (I) don't trust the bot carrying the flag, but... we do know that the EFC needs to die and the FC needs to be protected. So, we do one of two things.. kill the EFC if there is one, protect the FC if there is no EFC. Forget other players, forget mid. If we're attacked, we fight back. That solves every issue I have with the FC battlegrounds. EFC is #1 and protecting FC is #2. Nothing else matters.

Cap the Base: I believe the BGBuddy does this pretty well, with the biggest issue being if we have multiple bots. The only logic I can come up with to make bots "push" bases would be if we modified the logic so that
1) We go to the Biggest Fight if Enemies > Friendlies (if F>E we avoid) and within 30yds of a flag we can capture.
2) We go to the Best Base if only two enemy players are visible within 30yds of flag we can capture.
Without testing and seeing the full effect, that SHOULD make bots prioritize fights we need to help, and if we don't need to help, we head to a base where it would start a 1v2. The 1v2 would create a priority 1 scenario for other bots in the BG, causing them to also push that base. If we don't need to help at a fight and there's no good base to push, we should defend. Defending should have a bit better logic and not stand in one spot. If we've been defending longer than a minute (or so) and there's a fight where F > E.. we push that fight to help... as a LAST resort.

Kill the Boss: Do what we do now. Assault bases, and try to stick with the team. IMO the logic is fine here. Maybe check less often about following the "Biggest Friendly Pack" so we aren't running around like crazy as the bot tries to locate the biggest pack... maybe lower it to a 10 second check or something.

Just ideas.

 

[zuabros]

nothing can be more botlike than assaulting lonely a base full of enemies. beware of that.

 

[Impala]

1. join bg
2. Drop valentine's day picnic basket in the start of a bg
3. match starts
4. ?????
5. profit!!!!!

 

[haktrix]

i agree it need some tweaking i was watching it today n as i join a guy said "hey bots" 2 secs later "no auto reply?" then waited at the start and 6 of us ran outside and ran in a little then back out tbh it as simple as that for little dudes to start reporting, maybe if i did a profile mite stop that but same happens at flags n such people wont mind you botting as much if its been helpful not just in middle raping honour points then all bots running to same next big fight just my 2 cents anyway

 

[Awol]

The biggest problem with bots communicating is that it provides a way to identify other bots. I'm sure Blizzard would love to get their hands on that... I know it would make me uncomfortable knowing my bot was talking to others. The only way I'd be comfortable doing it is if they communicated with other instances on my machine which would limit the use of the bots but as I said before would be awesome.

I think it's more important to add more triggers to BGbot. Most of the logic right now is go where everyone else is given certain parameters. There may be a few others because sometimes the bot appears to do something a bit differently but that's the most common one. I think the challenge is to think up things that the ideal BGbot would do. Although the current method is detectable if there are too many bots it works decently well otherwise. It would be neat if the bot could track the movement of people or initiate movement itself sometimes.

An example: Arathi Basin/Eye of the storm/Battle for Gilneas - there are 7 people at the base and no horde in sight. My team only has that base. As a player what do I do? I scout a different base. If everyone is leaving a base and I am the closest then I would likely stay at the base to defend. I would not scout if I'm the only person there.

WSG and Twin peaks are easy.... either defend the flag or attack the other team's flag based on how many people are at each which is basically what BGbot does although it would be nice again if it realized hey we're all on defence and there's still 10 minutes left... I should probably go attack.

It's the logic that there are too many people at any given location that's missing and what to do if there are too many people at a node. You wouldn't want it to be predictable because then it would also be easy to detect.

I don't envy the programmers!

I agree with just about everything here. When I watch my bot in BGs I have no problem identifying other bots, they are doing nearly the exact same thing as I am at the exact same time if only just a few yards to the side of me or a few steps behind but that doesn't really bother me.

What bothers me is when I see the bot doing incredibly stupid things in the BGs. Like rushing a group of 5 or more ally with no tactical objective and no backup. Or leaving a flag defensless. Often in WSG you see bots stream in one by one to attack an enemy flag carrier. It would be much more human like if it tried to group up prior to going for the flag. Its frequently only a matter of 4 or 5 seconds.

I was thinking, and this could be flawed but what if the bot read BG chat? Often times chat tells you what you should be doing or where you are needed most. Not always but often. If the bot doesn't have anything better to do and chat is spamming FARM! then why not move farm up the priority list?

Also, why not run with the flag? Sometimes I see the bot pass up opportunities that make me scratch my head. As well as the CCs are I bet my character would be one hell of a good flag runner in the right circumstances.

 

[Sheon]

ya i see this a lot too seems like half the team on my side is buddies and it turns out to be a huge bot train -_-

they really need to make it so it randomizes each path everytime u enter a bg it goes a diffrent path etc...

if possible always make it target healers

also dont run into a group full of enemeys and watch ur self get wtf pwned

 

[HBfanboy1980]

In my opinion the most feasible choice is having Defend/Offend versus attack/accompany EFC or FC. Doesn't seem like its any more complcicated than changing the way it looks for largest concentrations of enemy/friendly targets.

Please correct me if I am wrong. This would ensure the bots are useful. All in all Blizz isn't gonna get any more "aware" if the entire BG system is filled with bots. They tolerate us as long as we stay under theirs and players radars.


If botting was such an issue they'd create town criers to call for bot reporting and shit like that to get player awareness up. They don't... they post shitty article on their site which no one reads to make people think they care.

 

[Trex]

The problem is not the bot logic. It is very good at deciding where to go at what time. The problem is the routes that it takes in between every area. EVERY bot uses these same routes in between, and this is where the conga line of bots comes into play. As many people have said, if there was some way this could be randomized, even slightly, it would make BGBot incredible.

Simply stated, so true. IT IS A GREAT TOOL. Anything that gets you a full set in a couple days is amazing and worth the 30$ in my book. All it needs is a small algorithm that defends instead of moving to the next path or something. That would be a quick and easy fix. This way you have 60% playing offensive botting and 40% sitting around for an extra minute and then following the path. Might split up the pack a bit and make it less obvious.

Another issue is that the hotspots don't transition smooth enough in some areas so it looks like a "click to move" idiot/bot.