[Apoc - Nesox] Question

[jinny1]

Lets do some bullshit math here.

In NA alone there are 200+ servers, so 200 just as a reference.
They are probably anywhere between 750-7500 user logged into these servers.
So a bunch are full, others are medium, others are next to empty. So lets go with 2500 users per server at any one time (I reference the term bullshit, but it makes sense.)

2500 x 200 = 500,000 online during low-medium playing times for NA.

Say 1/4 are running dungeons, 1/4 are PvPing, 1/4 are out botting/farming/questing, and the other 1/4 are just being lazy sitting in the main city.
so .75 (or 3/4) of that are actively moving and interacting. .75 x 500,000 = 375,000

I'll make up another bullshit number of say a minimum of 100 interactions a minute. If we included where a character moves to/stops/right-clicks/etc it would be well over 1k. (think of how much you move when you don't have to. Or how many times you spam your key-binds.)

So in 1 minute we have: 100 x 375,000 = 37,500,000 potentially "logged" actions.
To furthermore enforce the idea, there are 1440 minutes in a day.
Take the above 37.5mil x 1440 and you have 54,000,000,000 potential log entries every day!


Even with the MASSIVE storage drives available today that's a SHIT TON of log entries.

They don't log your every move.
They are pretty much confirmed of at least keeping temp logs of (X number of kills of X in X time/X harvests in X time/etc)

The most likely cause of bans these days is player reports. Those who take the time to actually report someone they see, which has become much easier for the clients, but has given a much higher workload for those who work for Activision Blizzard who have to sift through all the reports and decide if they are legitimate or not.

Also, Blizzard doesn't really deploy GMs into the server to check for bots anymore. You'll rarely ever actually "see" one. When you are chatting with them they aren't normally even logged into a character, but are interacting with the server through special software they have deployed at their workplace.


Blizzard doesn't log everything. They do log a lot, and for good reason. Character/gear retrieval. Chat logs. Achievements. Statistics. Et Cetera...



Just my 20 cents,
P4nda.


Edit: I just realized how long this post got, and how fast I was typing while creating it. Please refrain from pointing out grammatical/spelling/bullshit errors.

People PvP in this game??

What!? Whereeee! Me wants

 

[grim2594]

Lets do some bullshit math here.

(Forgive me for not wanting to quote your entire post. lol)

I believe you are using the assumption that records are being kept server-side, which indeed would take up a massive amount of space... but there is also the possibility that it is used client-side. (I am not saying that they in fact do this, but it could easily be done.) Doing such tasks server-side is a huge issue... However using the own client's resources to log key-specific events, like waypoints set up inside the game (gizmos/hidden coliders/ect), and other data is very easy to do.

I do not want to go into too much detail about this, because it's my hypothetical example; something I highly doubt they do. I know how to do such things because I actually am a game programmer... just saying it is possible.

It could easily be a flag that checks specific things, then reports to the server IF something triggers. (Again, not saying this is what they actually do.) They can easily use the user's own computer's resources against them in this case.

(Don't anyone get paranoid - just bot the shit out of it. lmao)

 

[xsol]

(Forgive me for not wanting to quote your entire post. lol)

I believe you are using the assumption that records are being kept server-side, which indeed would take up a massive amount of space... but there is also the possibility that it is used client-side. (I am not saying that they in fact do this, but it could easily be done.) Doing such tasks server-side is a huge issue... However using the own client's resources to log key-specific events, like waypoints set up inside the game (gizmos/hidden coliders/ect), and other data is very easy to do.

I do not want to go into too much detail about this, because it's my hypothetical example; something I highly doubt they do. I know how to do such things because I actually am a game programmer... just saying it is possible.

It could easily be a flag that checks specific things, then reports to the server IF something triggers. (Again, not saying this is what they actually do.) They can easily use the user's own computer's resources against them in this case.

(Don't anyone get paranoid - just bot the shit out of it. lmao)

storing data server side is an issue but tracking client or server side is a non issue. Obviously portion run client such as warden while others run server side. The lions share of security, analysis is going to be server side as Apoc and other reverses would find the client side tracking, flags

this type of poor man solution would only give us a heads up to what they look for. This isn't d2 after all... the server has to handle and validate (within reason) actions the user takes. This validation is two fold, but the server is handling the majority of what happens in terms of enforcing the rules etc as the client can be hacked and therefore can not flag anything reliably.

igunz for example has a piss poor anti cheat that you have to hack first; basically you just change the return value of both paths in an if else block to return true and it can't tell on you. omg

phew client is scary

 

[shuuk]

its funny to read that some ppl. say warden has no script detection.
no bot detection, no script detection and how get ppl. banned in d3 ?

there is no player reports like in wow..not all banned ppl. bot 24/7 hours..some ppl. bot 5 hours a day..

so to all these ppl. "no blizz btw. warden hast NO script detection" how can warden catch us?

So in 1 minute we have: 100 x 375,000 = 37,500,000 potentially "logged" actions.
To furthermore enforce the idea, there are 1440 minutes in a day.
Take the above 37.5mil x 1440 and you have 54,000,000,000 potential log entries every day!


Even with the MASSIVE storage drives available today that's a SHIT TON of log entries.

what is the problem? do you think gm`s take a look at all logs? warden does and he do it good...look at our ban thread.. and all other bot ban threads..
thats bullshit? ok than tell me how can warden ban us.

 

[Kickazz006]

ouch! after rereading http://www.thebuddyforum.com/buddy-...rbuddy-honorbuddy-forum-rules-guidelines.html I do apologize for rule breaking, thanks for not c r a c k i n g down on me kick

it's more a 'developer' question so I let it slide and not a 'help <some admin / mod> i don't know how to read the hb guide' type of thing like a lot of the dumb threads are about

 

[shuuk]

Lets do some bullshit math here.
(Forgive me for not wanting to quote your entire post. lol)

I believe you are using the assumption that records are being kept server-side, which indeed would take up a massive amount of space... but there is also the possibility that it is used client-side. (I am not saying that they in fact do this, but it could easily be done.) Doing such tasks server-side is a huge issue... However using the own client's resources to log key-specific events, like waypoints set up inside the game (gizmos/hidden coliders/ect), and other data is very easy to do.

I do not want to go into too much detail about this, because it's my hypothetical example; something I highly doubt they do. I know how to do such things because I actually am a game programmer... just saying it is possible.

It could easily be a flag that checks specific things, then reports to the server IF something triggers. (Again, not saying this is what they actually do.) They can easily use the user's own computer's resources against them in this case.

(Don't anyone get paranoid - just bot the shit out of it. lmao)

i think people with good reverse eng. knowledge can find out what goes out from the client and what comes in.

 

[xsol]

I have to assume warden is downloaded and run on the fly and does not reside completely in the game client memory, BUT the means (methods) to load it reside there and therefore the potential to detect when it is loaded and becomes active as well as what it scans for.

That is pure theory crafting and nothing more, but it seems logical, therefore someone please fill that theory full of holes

 

[Apoc]

There's nothing in the client to detect repetitive actions. We can't (and nobody can except for the people at Blizzard) say what goes on in their servers. Plain and simple; they do track certain things (like usage statistics, game times, etc) for their internal use, as well as most likely some form of anti-botting type thing. Again, we can't say for certain what goes on, we can only theorize.

Adjusting waypoints is something we could do in the future. Right now, its not a large concern until we have the bigger things worked out.

To add to that, adding "randomized" waypoints is something that will be risky. It requires us to ensure any randomized point is actually where the user wants to be, as well as meets all the usual criteria for being a valid point. (Walkable, navigable, not instant-death, etc) If there's enough demand, and users are willing, we can add "use at your own risk" type randomized points for profiles fairly easily. But something properly tested to include all the edge-cases for being a safe location, won't come so quickly.

 

[xsol]

There's nothing in the client to detect repetitive actions. We can't (and nobody can except for the people at Blizzard) say what goes on in their servers. Plain and simple; they do track certain things (like usage statistics, game times, etc) for their internal use, as well as most likely some form of anti-botting type thing. Again, we can't say for certain what goes on, we can only theorize.

Adjusting waypoints is something we could do in the future. Right now, its not a large concern until we have the bigger things worked out.

To add to that, adding "randomized" waypoints is something that will be risky. It requires us to ensure any randomized point is actually where the user wants to be, as well as meets all the usual criteria for being a valid point. (Walkable, navigable, not instant-death, etc) If there's enough demand, and users are willing, we can add "use at your own risk" type randomized points for profiles fairly easily. But something properly tested to include all the edge-cases for being a safe location, won't come so quickly.

Thanks for taking the time to post. I know I personally would rather have the maze solving (random dungeons) than lame nearly worthless randomized waypoints.

 

[likwid818]

its funny to read that some ppl. say warden has no script detection.
no bot detection, no script detection and how get ppl. banned in d3 ?

there is no player reports like in wow..not all banned ppl. bot 24/7 hours..some ppl. bot 5 hours a day..

so to all these ppl. "no blizz btw. warden hast NO script detection" how can warden catch us?



what is the problem? do you think gm`s take a look at all logs? warden does and he do it good...look at our ban thread.. and all other bot ban threads..
thats bullshit? ok than tell me how can warden ban us.

god would you please just stop posting? i have nothing constructive to add to this thread, because I also don't know exactly how they are banning people - but the one thing i was able to extract from this thread is that your incoherent babbling makes me want to punch myself all about the head and neck repeatedly. just do us all a favor and break your keyboard.

one thing i can say with a fair amount of certainty is that they are not logging each and every users interactions in the game and checking them through some type of 'neural network' or 'IsBOT algorithm" .. that's an INSANE amount of data to log and process. to do something like that would cost an exorbitant amount of money. if they really wanted to stop bots, they could. i won't post the specifics here, but i'm sure that Apoc/Nesox knows how easy it would be for them.

 

[no1knowsy]

I'm surprised this thread is still active.

Now, if they were doing client-side data storage (which of course would only last for that log-in session) it would be very limited.
The buddy team would already be able to see it, and do what they want with it.

As for server-side. We already know that they do keep statistics. Every time you hit a node it adds 1 to your nodes hit count. This, along with automated server-side processes that run through all users who were online in say the past hour and takes that hour worth of log, turn it into a # of nodes hit within that hour, which shortens said file insanely. And in this way they could keep down on storage space as well as useless information.


Having randomization isn't "bad". It is in fact what keeps botters safe. If it wasn't for randomization we wouldn't make it very far. This includes just being able to have profiles separated from the bot itself.
If we only had profiles available that the devs had built straight into the bot then we'd all be screwed. Then being able to create and utilize plugins to do incredible things.

Blizzard would not, and will not, create a log of your exact path taken. They could add a flag point at certain coordinates so that everyone who passes through it gets their name added to a list with a timestamp of when. And if you pass through that point at approximately the same interval over and over then it's pretty obvious something is up. Nobody is that good.
Thus, the availability of user-created profiles saves lives.


If having randomized points makes you feel safer, then please do. Making your own profile is a start, or even just modifying the points in the one you use.

I realize now that this is in the DemonBuddy forum, but it also applies to HB. @Jinny1, on that note PvP is not in D3 yet It sucks.

 

[Cyclone9]

I would love to see randomized points made into profiles. That sounds like a great safety measure. Maybe just end points for a start. Changing where the bot tps back to town after every run I think has the potential to make it a lot harder to be caught botting.

 

[brollysan]

Lets do some bullshit math here.

In NA alone there are 200+ servers, so 200 just as a reference.
They are probably anywhere between 750-7500 user logged into these servers.
So a bunch are full, others are medium, others are next to empty. So lets go with 2500 users per server at any one time (I reference the term bullshit, but it makes sense.)

2500 x 200 = 500,000 online during low-medium playing times for NA.

Say 1/4 are running dungeons, 1/4 are PvPing, 1/4 are out botting/farming/questing, and the other 1/4 are just being lazy sitting in the main city.
so .75 (or 3/4) of that are actively moving and interacting. .75 x 500,000 = 375,000

I'll make up another bullshit number of say a minimum of 100 interactions a minute. If we included where a character moves to/stops/right-clicks/etc it would be well over 1k. (think of how much you move when you don't have to. Or how many times you spam your key-binds.)

So in 1 minute we have: 100 x 375,000 = 37,500,000 potentially "logged" actions.
To furthermore enforce the idea, there are 1440 minutes in a day.
Take the above 37.5mil x 1440 and you have 54,000,000,000 potential log entries every day!


Even with the MASSIVE storage drives available today that's a SHIT TON of log entries.

They don't log your every move.
They are pretty much confirmed of at least keeping temp logs of (X number of kills of X in X time/X harvests in X time/etc)

The most likely cause of bans these days is player reports. Those who take the time to actually report someone they see, which has become much easier for the clients, but has given a much higher workload for those who work for Activision Blizzard who have to sift through all the reports and decide if they are legitimate or not.

Also, Blizzard doesn't really deploy GMs into the server to check for bots anymore. You'll rarely ever actually "see" one. When you are chatting with them they aren't normally even logged into a character, but are interacting with the server through special software they have deployed at their workplace.


Blizzard doesn't log everything. They do log a lot, and for good reason. Character/gear retrieval. Chat logs. Achievements. Statistics. Et Cetera...



Just my 20 cents,
P4nda.


Edit: I just realized how long this post got, and how fast I was typing while creating it. Please refrain from pointing out grammatical/spelling/bullshit errors.

Let me start by saying I too believe it is bullshit that they log our movement, it would make very little sense and be computationally costly, though not nearly as dramatic as you point it out to be, there are far more efficient ways of tracing movement :d

 

[no1knowsy]

Let me start by saying I too believe it is bullshit that they log our movement, it would make very little sense and be computationally costly, though not nearly as dramatic as you point it out to be, there are far more efficient ways of tracing movement :d

Yes there are, and could be implemented in several ways. They might do these cheaper, and less definitive loggings, but nobody knows for sure.