Lack of End game CRs and support

[anubite]

I feel the same pyroe. It feels at times like they are taking a crazy amount from the developers but at the same time the bot is still going off based on payments of $30 for a license. I'd be more then happy to pay a monthly/yearly subscription for the bot if HB upped their game and ante; but at the same time; they are under heavy legal pressure from blizzard so I'm sure they've spent a fortune on that. A lot of the developers are very proactive in terms of updating their work and the HB mods are usually extremely helpful.

Edit----------

If HB wanted to have a "jazzed up" or "premium" bot offered; I'd be more then happy to vote yes in a poll to pay for that. We love you HB and are more than happy to support.

I would like to see a premium version too if it would help with cash flow.

 

[dilbog]

Hb offers Singular CR which works for all specs/classes,you paid and you got exactly what it was advertised

Yes indeed it does Tony but it's useless for anything other than questing as it has zero optimization for any kind of end game content thats why 3rd party routines exist.

the contract between us and 3rd party devs is none of your business,you can create your own 3rd party Bstore if you like and make better contracts with 3rd party devs
till that time let us decide how we like to run our own company

you are not forced to use Bstore at all if you dont like it btw,what Bossland Gmbh devs do support is the stock aspects of Honorbuddy
everything in Bstore (except stock shizzle) is supported only by 3rd party devs

While I agree your dealings with the 3rd party devs is none of our business but you cannot deny it has spilled over onto public forums.
As you said before no one is forced to use the buddy store except I was because I owned Millz, Marbis & Tuaha's routines before the store and they migrated to it so I had no choice but to use it.
Then I did the worst thing ever and purchased more stuff from the store, #Mage that is getting ZERO updates and Oracle2 that is only getting updates to make it work HB but no optimization making them totally useless.
Tuanha has clearly stated on his web page he is working on a new platform and his updates here have been small from what I gather some work better than others atm but the shaman I use need's looking at.
There are others but you get the picture.
Tony to say it's none of our business while technically correct is morally wrong because from my own point of view I own a lot of stuff that is under support peroid and not worth a dam.

 

[Pyroe]

Yes indeed it does Tony but it's useless for anything other than questing as it has zero optimization for any kind of end game content thats why 3rd party routines exist.


While I agree your dealings with the 3rd party devs is none of our business but you cannot deny it has spilled over onto public forums.
As you said before no one is forced to use the buddy store except I was because I owned Millz, Marbis & Tuaha's routines before the store and they migrated to it so I had no choice but to use it.
Then I did the worst thing ever and purchased more stuff from the store, #Mage that is getting ZERO updates and Oracle2 that is only getting updates to make it work HB but no optimization making them totally useless.
Tuanha has clearly stated on his web page he is working on a new platform and his updates here have been small from what I gather some work better than others atm but the shaman I use need's looking at.
There are others but you get the picture.
Tony to say it's none of our business while technically correct is morally wrong because from my own point of view I own a lot of stuff that is under support peroid and not worth a dam.

Very well said.

 

[Nightcrawler12]

I agree to a large degree; but at the same time you have to remember that it takes a crazy amount of time to develop, optimize and support these routines and at the same time it's not like they're selling 50,000 copies and making a million dollars a product. They would probably sell at most 1000 copies, at absolute most; yes they make decent cash but its very very time intensive and the HB community probably isn't spending enough to justify tuanha not having an actual job

 

[Xcesius]

I'm pleased to announce that YourRaidingBuddy V3 (Which will come out some point during legion) will be Free.

 

[dilbog]

I agree to a large degree; but at the same time you have to remember that it takes a crazy amount of time to develop, optimize and support these routines and at the same time it's not like they're selling 50,000 copies and making a million dollars a product. They would probably sell at most 1000 copies, at absolute most; yes they make decent cash but its very very time intensive and the HB community probably isn't spending enough to justify tuanha not having an actual job

I am a big fan of Tuanha and have loved his routines from the free shadow priest routine before millz made his to all the ones he has now, While I do not know how many he has or has not sold and have no care to speculate he needs to support his current products while he is on the process of migrating, Once he migrates I will follow him most likely because of the many profiles he has to a high standard but I am also closely watching what he does now so I can guage the risk if something like the HB situation where to rise again.
Oh and I know how long it takes to make a routine I ran a private warlock routine in mop because there was nothing that handled what I required until millz got decent.

 

[Pyroe]

Good news Xcesius. Thank you for giving something to the community.

Nightcrawler I don't have any solid figures on the amount of people that buy payed CR's however I think there would be far more than a thousand.

 

[Tony]

As you said before no one is forced to use the buddy store except I was because I owned Millz, Marbis & Tuaha's routines before the store and they migrated to it so I had no choice but to use it.

if i am right you got your free copy when the devs moved their work under Bstore
if you have any issues with your purchased 3rd party stuff you have to bother the 3rd party devs,the exact same you would do before Bstore

 

[Tony]

Hang on a minute Tony. The contract between the developers and the buddy team Directly effects us all. Great projects are stalled because of the ever increasing demands from your store.

I am well aware that I am not forced to use your Buddy store but unfortunately in order to obtain the projects from my favorite developers I Have to use your store, albeit most of the store purchases I own were purchased before the integration into the buddystore.

still none of your business tho

we offered Bstore,some of the 3rd party stuff decided to follow us some not
if you dont agree with their decisions its not our problem and also its something you have to discuss it with them directly

idk why you are keep yelling at Bossland Gmbh,a contract requires 2 parts

 

[Xcesius]

Good news Xcesius. Thank you for giving something to the community.

Nightcrawler I don't have any solid figures on the amount of people that buy payed CR's however I think there would be far more than a thousand.

It's the least I can do for my users. I'm also in process of re-doing YRB V2 to V3 to prepare for Legion, allowing me to convert Simulationcraft profiles more easily.

I've got a python script which parses all the simulationcraft to Coroutine, which makes the process of creating rotations much easier than before. This python script will never be shared on the forums (Maybe when I call the quit some day), as I would assume that would kill all "effort" of making guides / teaching people how Coroutine really works.

 

[Macatho]

Before people get their panties in a bunch shoutout to Millz, Hazzrd, Tuanha,Mirabis and Handnavi....all of their products are worth their weight in gold.

Not sure if I missed something like the combat system for HB is being reworked or buddy store is scaring people away from developing and improving the CR.

Did everyone quit after the banwave or something?

So their products are worth nothing because they weigh nothing?


Any who, yeah I think a lot of people quit after blizzard started selling gold. Just can't compete against someone that can push one button and make any amount of gold. And that was the reason for a large majority of people that actually brought the community to a new level - gold farming.

 

[Macatho]

still none of your business tho

we offered Bstore,some of the 3rd party stuff decided to follow us some not
if you dont agree with their decisions its not our problem and also its something you have to discuss it with them directly

idk why you are keep yelling at Bossland Gmbh,a contract requires 2 parts

Some people just want everything to be free, and when people actually wanna get paid a dollar an hour for their work they scream.

 

[jino]

I own alot of paid routines but the fact say Tuan's DK is 20k dps lower then regular players and it's the only CR for DK's

lol if you just click auto setup and run, yes its 20k slower dps, but if you actually set the CR up and use certain macros at the right time and actually PLAY with the routine...you will be r1 or r2 depending on your gear and who else is DPSing against you.

 

[dilbog]

if i am right you got your free copy when the devs moved their work under Bstore
if you have any issues with your purchased 3rd party stuff you have to bother the 3rd party devs,the exact same you would do before Bstore

You missed the point. Did I say I didnt get the products I said I had not choice but to use the buddy store to continue to keep using the products I already owned. Now these some of these products are not working full stop or only getting basic updates making them useless.
So what was the point of buddy store? other than streaming. How did the store benefit the end user? From my point of view it sure didn't add a extra layer of security for us, some devs still gone incognito. You are the point of sale for these routines and support now rests on you. Do you think we the end user should all be chasing down the devs and asking them why they are not updating there products? There contract is with HB same way as our support contract is with HB as you where the sales agent.

still none of your business tho

we offered Bstore,some of the 3rd party stuff decided to follow us some not
if you dont agree with their decisions its not our problem and also its something you have to discuss it with them directly

idk why you are keep yelling at Bossland Gmbh,a contract requires 2 parts

Can you clarify this please? Does this include the devs who started using the buddy store but are refusing to sign the new contract?

 

[Pyroe]

Don't stress too much dilbog. Tony still missed the point and he continues to tow the company line.

The major Fact I am concerned about is that some developers are refusing to sign the new contract and this has me worried. I was under the assumption that when we purchased something it would continue to get ongoing support and development. I have no issue paying for someones hard work. As long as I get the after sales support and development.

 

[Nightcrawler12]

To be honest I can feel the feels if you've bought things from the store or your developer only uses the store exclusively to sell and market their products.

Yes HB takes a massive percetange of revenue; but they also opened these developers up to a much much wider audience. Imagine all of the people who use this bot but never post/check forums/follow the community and they just use their key to bot bgs and lvl the occasional toon. They aren't going to go to for example Tuanha's website and buy them specifically. They wouldn't feel safe, comfortable or whatever. The HB store allows them to say "if HB is selling it, I trust it".

I'm sure a lot of the developers if HB is taking exorbitant amounts will just migrate to another store. I'm sure Millz, Tuanha, Inrego, etc... could all come together and open their own store. I feel it would be fair if HB allowed these dev's to have their signatures on this site as a link to their website/sell site.

It's a tough balance; HB made the bet that they could support and look after a bot for x years based on only a $30 lifetime key. Now the bot's been going on for a long time; they've been in court with blizzard for years and from what I know they haven't managed their financial situation (taxation, investments) optimally. I've said this once and I'll say it again; I'd be more then happy if HB went the way of pirox.
'
When Pirox new he was hitting his peak as well as the end of his "run" he changed the model. Sure it was unpopular in the beginning but everyone was always incredibly grateful that he did updates extremely quickly and that he had a product that truly worked. If HB wants to break their bot down into 3-5 "levels" and charge a monthly/annual fee I'd be more than happy to pay. That would of course have to match a better level of customer support, faster turn around times and much greater development of commonly used profiles/features (WoD LFR, another option to singular, Garrisonbuddy). I really like HB and the team and I appreciate everything they do and have done, but I feel like if its simply a matter of money for us to get a better product; setup a monthly fee with different tiers and let's keep it rumbling.

On the other side they are in court against blizzard; not sure how much longer they can fight them off for. They could just move the business to Uganda or the Bahamas and Tony can respond to people "need log" from the sun with a coconut in hand.

 

[misterallendavis34]

As stated tony yes their is a free version but it doesn't even compete in end game content and if you are trying to run end game and use that free cr you might as well go pay for a carry. Your numbers are not even going to come close to hard core raiders who are at the same ilevel. I have spent countless hours trying to figure out what i could do to try not to spend shit tons of real money on the store because ive been against it since day one. So yes i started to buy and the only real person i trust is tuanha's profiles because they come with in spitting range of what your numbers should be not spot on could use some work but close. This is only meaning the dk and hunter i havnt tried any other. I have even gone as far as asking fellow botters that make their own to help me out. The problem every one here is having is the lack of support not only from developers of cr's but from HB as well. How many times have i requested for you to script lfr and get told if I dont like it do it myself. or thread closed like you always do. I love HB but within the last year you have dropped the ball more then once. Like i see in almost every post why dont you step up the singular and go to a premium bot im almost sure alot of us would pay but that would require more work from you that honestly i dont know if you are willing to do it.
We all need this bot or we wouldn't be here but for you to say its none of our business which in certain ways it may not but in most it really is. You are chasing good developers away by constricting them to contracts that are honestly unjust. This bot started as a help all way of life but then you realize how much money you could suck out of everyone you then turn another side and get greedy. We all see it maybe now is the time to win back some of your great followers and become a communtiy with us instead of against us. Good luck to your future releases i hope you listen to the many that are truly unhappy here and start changing what you have done wrong.

 

[pookthetook]

Sign the new contract or not, we're still bound by the original one under which we published products originally. The new one is for new sales. That said, there's really nothing making someone maintain a product once the monetary incentives are gone (sales frozen). That's the flaw with only a one-time purchase, but that's the business model they chose.

Even before the store people sold all kinds of things on their own sites or other stores. If you wanted the better routines you'd go search and find them and have to pay. You didn't honestly know if the product would be "maintained", you paid for use right then with a hope that it would continue to be updated. The store promising developers will honor their agreement is bad on their part because it relies on developer integrity.

WoW is losing subscriptions like crazy which has affected the wow botting community pretty hard, so did the banwave, and so did the token.
Lots of store developers do it as a main form of income, otherwise they wouldn't be able to put in all the time needed for development. Less botters; less sales. The new store contract taking an even higher percentage to cover chargeback costs came at a crap timing too even if the store still runs at a loss.

Projects are getting more and more complex as users get more demanding. If I made a cr that did a single-target only rotation would you be happy with that? Some might, most wouldn't. People would be really mad if it was a paid product - even if what I made off it was a fraction of what I'd get developing normal software for the same time spent. They'd want me to keep working on it adding features and options, all of which is time I'd have to spend pretty much working for free. If I didn't implement everything everyone wants, even if the original project still works, people will complain that it isn't updated.

Donations used to be a motivator for community projects, but now that's pretty much dead. Look at how many people use Azyul profiles yet there's only been two donations in the last year.
Singular is open source but people get demanding and want more. There are other open source community projects but they tend to die out. It's time consuming and most of the people with the know-how keep their work private or sell it to make up for the development time.

The community is greedy on both ends.
Developers release shit quality products in large amounts to get as many sales as possible and then stop updating with new features once sales slow.
Users want everything and expect it for nothing, and get pissy if they have to pay then demand even more.
Lots of people expect everyone else to make everything they want yet they don't lift a finger themselves unless it's to bitch. I've seen a few people like that in this thread. Don't like something then make it yourself how you want it. Don't like being told to make it yourself then pay someone else to do it. Don't like paying or having to do something for yourself? Tough shit, that's life, get off your high horse and join the community.

Not knowing how to do something yourself and really trying is different though. Watch a vid or two on basic C#, there's guides on cr writing. Need something more specific then post in the community dev section asking for help. You can even pm me or others for help with specific tasks.

 

[misterallendavis34]

well put pook there is greed from both ends i dont agree witht hose who bitch and havnt spent a dime on cr's fromt eh store on the other end I do see a lack of concern from hb to improve what clearly is laid out there for them to see. If HB took the time to help improve the singular then maybe not so many people would complain on the forums.

 

[Nightcrawler12]

Well said pook.

HB you can tell is trying to save money right now for the moment; I'd hope with legion they might swap their model or introduce new features/update features to capture more people of the 5million people who will sub back to the game.