Streaming of buddyshop and manual editing

[Lemmi]

these arguments are obsolete!
U can always contact the Authors/Supportes of free products to apply your changes, resolve bugs

restricting of would-be coders from learning -> there are guides, maybe outdated, but they exists, u can't learn much more from other routines/profiles ... except copy and pasting the whole routine / profile / plugin, rename it and republish it under your name ... u'll say noone will do so ... we had this already, multiple times.

for questions about codingm there is a community dev. forum to ask the questions, and u'll get help there, even for new would-be coders.

and of course there is a reason to not share code from free stuff ... (same discussion in every thread) ... u (or me) as dev will have the problem to support people that are still using outdated code (happens often enough... seen lots of people that where still using Purerotation code from last year while multiple HEAVY bugs where already fixed) and complaining about stuff not working properly.

and "learning" does not mean that u'll need a whole CR as example often it is enough to have snippets of code ... and many devs will share snippets, but for sure not the whole code

what you are proposing is a huge step backwards and waste of time for all parties involved! Having to have to ask for EVERYTHING, slow responses and development will hurt everyone, It is well known that not everything gets fixed or with luck it does eventually several days/weeks/months later.. and why would you need to wait that much when you could just do it yourself in a few minutes/hours, plus having a look into the profile helps understanding what exactly is wrong which helps to report the bug later. Lots of people do custom modifications to fit their needs, it makes no sense to have to ask a dev to custom taylor to your need or something like that.. and if that isnt an option then all the worse. About keeping up to date, it sure is a nice perk, but you could just use a svn auto update that some do.. or yeah, you could just let the store do auto updates and everyone is happy. Plus it has happened several times that newer versions break things.. Look at this very common escenario, new version of HB breaks a lot of stuff and push changes to profiles.. profiles gets updated but since some feature which is essencial for me is broken i cant use it and need an older version.. the new version of the profile isnt compatible in some way with the older version of hb.. result? im fucked.

The piracy problem which is the only valid concern imo, gets a lot of help with the sole appearence of the store, profile and CR selling is going to, hopefully, be centralized here and bossland is going to control the writers to avoid plagiarism and that sort of thing. It could be further improved and everyone in here is going to support it and im sure there is a way which wont screw us.

 

[Giwin]

The reasons why the buddy store was created;

1. It was wanted, high demand
2. If a person feels his product will be pirated, he will be put off to even make more, the streaming offers much better protection (no system is perfect but this system is very good)
3. Due to the signed contracts, it won't be like the free stuff and quality will be set high
4. Better than 3rd party sites (and I have actually seen this), the person providing support simply ups and leaves with your money and you can't do anything about it apart from ask for a request from paypal (within X days)
5. Once again, people will make products, better ones... ones you've never heard of because they know they'll get a fair price and their product won't be pirated
6. I have been creating my own questing profiles for almost 2 years now, everything automated (I was aiming for a 1-click 1-90 and now that WoD is coming, 1-100) and I wouldn't dream of selling the profiles/plugins because I know it will be stolen and I'd get nothing, therefore I won't release it in the first place but this new system allows me to sell my profiles/plugins without fear of everyone getting it for free anyway.
7. I, like other devs (that probably know C# too) can make things like 1-600 Profession Profiles (I'm not talking about the fake up to 600 that never gets completed) but had no reason to do so until now, because their product is protected and they can sell it without feeling that they're wasting their time.

The people who complain are mostly angry that they "have to pay" for a better experience, but that's true in almost every aspect of life based on the widely accepted capitalist system... some of the points raised such as making some products open source which are free any way are very good points which I hope buddy team pick up on (which they seem to, referring to raphus statement) and makes it easier to share so that people who want to learn C# or profile/routine/botbase creating can do so, it's good to not lose that aspect since I myself learnt C# because making plugins for a bot was interesting vs making a calculator which did not.

So, Open Source learning on all freeware products (encouraging developers, like raphus said) whilst being to obtain paid products which reward the developers who put a lot of time and effort into their work, everyone's a winner except those who expect to get everything for free after they buy the bot.

Thank you for creating the poll, they're a great way to send a message to the buddy team and a diplomatic way of expressing concern.

 

[ShortRound]

I'll freely admit that I've adjusted any number of Kick's questing profiles - heck, even turning off the level checking requires a profile edit. For combat routines, I played around with an automated button press on Ultraxion on somebody's rogue routine - sorry, I forget whose - that wasn't part of the original code. For plugins, I miss being able to hack around the code for AutoEquip since that got integrated but that's not a store issue.

Most of my current interests are in dungeon scripts but I can certainly see a downside in not being able to adjust code to personal preference. If a lot of the freebie stuff is going to be .svn and threaded in the community pages, that will be all to the community's good. However, I can see a problem if free versions of combat routines and such aren't posted. Ultraxion killed me any number of times because I wasn't paying attention.

 

[Lemmi]

The reasons why the buddy store was created;

1. It was wanted, high demand
2. If a person feels his product will be pirated, he will be put off to even make more, the streaming offers much better protection (no system is perfect but this system is very good)
3. Due to the signed contracts, it won't be like the free stuff and quality will be set high
4. Better than 3rd party sites (and I have actually seen this), the person providing support simply ups and leaves with your money and you can't do anything about it apart from ask for a request from paypal (within X days)
5. Once again, people will make products, better ones... ones you've never heard of because they know they'll get a fair price and their product won't be pirated
6. I have been creating my own questing profiles for almost 2 years now, everything automated (I was aiming for a 1-click 1-90 and now that WoD is coming, 1-100) and I wouldn't dream of selling the profiles/plugins because I know it will be stolen and I'd get nothing, therefore I won't release it in the first place but this new system allows me to sell my profiles/plugins without fear of everyone getting it for free anyway.
7. I, like other devs (that probably know C# too) can make things like 1-600 Profession Profiles (I'm not talking about the fake up to 600 that never gets completed) but had no reason to do so until now, because their product is protected and they can sell it without feeling that they're wasting their time.

The people who complain are mostly angry that they "have to pay" for a better experience, but that's true in almost every aspect of life based on the widely accepted capitalist system... some of the points raised such as making some products open source which are free any way are very good points which I hope buddy team pick up on (which they seem to, referring to raphus statement) and makes it easier to share so that people who want to learn C# or profile/routine/botbase creating can do so, it's good to not lose that aspect since I myself learnt C# because making plugins for a bot was interesting vs making a calculator which did not.

So, Open Source learning on all freeware products (encouraging developers, like raphus said) whilst being to obtain paid products which reward the developers who put a lot of time and effort into their work, everyone's a winner except those who expect to get everything for free after they buy the bot.

Thank you for creating the poll, they're a great way to send a message to the buddy team and a diplomatic way of expressing concern.

i dont think the "having to pay" is the concern nor anyone here is really complaining about a store, just the unavailability that comes with the streaming service. Its definetely not the same looking at free profiles which most of them are extremely basic than a premium product. Luckily plugins seem to be open sourced and hope they still work this way in the future. We understand the piracy concerns but there has to be a better way.

 

[Windows]

giwin wrote it best above

streaming is great for the reasons he said

streaming can be improved but the idea is great

 

[BubbaDad]

I looked at the Buddy Store and the prices seem really expensive. I like to test drive a product to see if its worth buying. I also like a copy of the product on my machine. Some need to be modified and are broken at certain points.

That said I do have a free copy of Brodieman and it works pretty good, there are a few problems with AFK on some daily quests which is what I was looking for. The main fear I have is paying for the product and then the developer decides not to support it or wants more money to support it.

I would more support a monthly fee to access all the products the Buddy Store has to offer. Someone is always coming up with a better mousetrap. I would be willing to pay $5 USA a month for such access. Maybe more but dunno. If BS had a monthly pay all access structure then I wouldn't have to worry about a dud piece of product. And in my 40 years of computing I have bought plenty of duds. I will say with freeware you usually get what you pay for.

 

[FaceRollFTW]

I understand the reasoning and thoughts behind the buddy store.

Here are my concerns:

1. A broken version of code is released. Now I can not go back to the prior working release as I could with the svn version. I am no longer controlling when my software is being updated, I am at the developers mercy. This is especially important with Combat Routines. I have seen plenty of releases where something unintentional was broken and having the ability to go back a release or two still allowed me to raid or pvp.
2. If I am in the middle of a raid / BG ... and Honor buddy dies. Then I can't restart HB without it streaming everything again. I feel this is my major issue with the change, especially if there are network issues to the HB servers. I wish HB would store these streamed items locally and only update when there is a change.
3. Non executable files associated with the Combat Routines are not downloaded during streaming. I have already seen people having issues because there are no defaults config files to import or load. Then the user has to go to a 3rd party site to down load the files. Then the more non technical users have no idea where to save the files so the Combat Routine can seem them. This seems like a ongoing support nightmare.

Well just my $.02

 

[DarkManz]

The Buddy Store and the way it is setup is going to destroy this community. I have no issue with developers making a little something for their time, and I know that most of them put a ton of time into not only developing their code, but also in troubleshooting it, upgrading it and maintaining it.
I own most if not all of the "Paid" CRs, I have not ever paid for a Profile nor would I. Profiles are simple enough to make and previous to this "Store" edit to suit my needs, and I am much more comfortable using something that I know only I have the Waypoints for rather than the masses.
All of that being said, the prices for the stuff on the store are ridiculous, especially when you consider that every greedy MotherF**r on here is currently writing, re-writing, or dreaming of getting rich at this. Every single piece of worthwhile code is going to be "Paid" and all "Free" code is eventually going to be essentially worthless. People are going to have to drop $10-$30 for a decent CR (Per Class, I have one of every class and I am sure I am not alone), and many of these overinflated routines do not cover more than 1 or 2 specs for that class. Plus you are going to be charged for any plug-ins, Botbases, and profiles you want to use it is going to get out of hand.
I've already seen some folks that I respect quite a lot make the transition from "All of my stuff will always be free" to $15-$20 on the store in these early stages.
While I understand the desire to protect the Source Code from would-be thieves, the other side of the coin is that progress is going to fall to a snail pace. Without someone out there pushing you guys to improve your code daily there is not going to be much incentive to improve upon it. Support? Yeah I am sure you are all going to get right on that support after the plateau of sales hits and there is really no reason to continue to deal with everyone's complaints. But I have probably already struck on the next big idea...sell support via the buddy store..
Finally one of my biggest concerns is this. We have seen Developers come and go and the development and support for their products along with them. In the past this was not as big of a deal because we had the code, with a little ability we could self maintain it through patches and such to keep it functioning for us. Now if we pay for something from the store and the developer bounces we are left with nothing but a fond sense of a faded memory, an empty wallet and an intense uneasiness about finding a replacement and subsequent fucking.

I like supporting the Developers, I loath the ones trying to make a fortune from this. Some of the TOS that these developers tag with their shit is just about as shady and invasive as Blizzards. I am at a point now where I am truly considering not supporting anyone's future work via payment. Taking what code I have now and converting it for my own use and developing my own future needs. People are charging more for this stupid shit than we pay for our WoW subs, and as much if not more than the actual Bot (Honor Buddy) itself.

If you are going to charge fucking insane amounts then we should have access to the code and the ability to edit it ourselves. If not then make the price fucking reasonable.

 

[mitre27]

does streaming prevent piracy

People pirate honorbuddy? Doesn't it connect to a server and needs to be connected to work?

 

[Weetbix]

As a long time user of Honorbuddy and a budding routine & botbase developer I would like to add my two cents worth, after all, it appears everyone else is doing the same.

Until recently I have had very little need to review the source code of combat routines and bot bases. If they work I will use it and if not I would provide comments to the developer(s) where necessary, for the most part patiently waiting for the developer to implement any changes. But over the last few months I have taken it upon myself to learn C# in an attempt to write to combat routines and bot bases. With the transition of free products to paid Buddy Store products I have already noticed a decline in the availability of quality source code from which I can review and learn. Unfortunately I feel it is only a matter of time before this has a detrimental effect on any up and coming routine and bot base developers. Now having said that, if I were to invest an exorbitant amount of time into a product that clearly some developers have done I too would appreciate some form of monetary compensation for my work.

What I would like to see is some form of mechanism for the sharing of Honorbuddy programming knowledge beyond what we already have, that being the community developer section. Perhaps a knowledge base or code repository where developers could share snippets in a constructive and educational manner. I personally do not feel the community developer section is efficient in propagation of Honorbuddy programming knowledge. You are effectively at the mercy of other community members and their willingness to share, or not, information at any given moment. Likewise for those more knowledgeable developers answering the same simple questions time and again would likely become frustrating.

To those with concerns about the abandonment of paid projects on the buddy store, there have been sufficient posts from senior developers (or owners) about the responsibility of those developing products for the buddy store. Specifically around their requirement to continue supporting the products for a period of time and being bound by a legal contract.

To those developers currently selling products on the store and to all future developers I wish to offer some unsolicited advice; lower your prices. I am employed and have sufficient disposable income but there are still some products for sale on the store that I would hesitate in purchasing simply because I feel they are overpriced.

 

[Lemmi]

Well the aprox 30% increase in price comes from the 30% cut bossland takes from each sale. No wonder they upped their prices.

 

[mitre27]

Seems silly to have to pay so much for honorbuddy and then have to pay a shit ton per script.

 

[Weetbix]

Seems silly to have to pay so much for honorbuddy and then have to pay a shit ton per script.

Despite my objections to the price some developers are asking for their works I do agree with the principle behind the buddy store. When you purchase Honorbuddy you receive a full assortment of free plug-ins and the default - perfectly capable - combat routine Singular. That is what you have paid for and nothing more.

It is your decision if you wish to then purchase additional add-on products from the buddy store. If you do not see any benefit to the wares being sold you are under no obligation to purchase them. The entire process is no different to purchasing, for example, a new car. When you purchase the car that is exactly what you get. It is your decision if you wish to purchase any add-on parts and accessories. You don't expect to receive any or all aftermarket accessories free of charge to you?

 

[mitre27]

Despite my objections to the price some developers are asking for their works I do agree with the principle behind the buddy store. When you purchase Honorbuddy you receive a full assortment of free plug-ins and the default - perfectly capable - combat routine Singular. That is what you have paid for and nothing more.

It is your decision if you wish to then purchase additional add-on products from the buddy store. If you do not see any benefit to the wares being sold you are under no obligation to purchase them. The entire process is no different to purchasing, for example, a new car. When you purchase the car that is exactly what you get. It is your decision if you wish to purchase any add-on parts and accessories. You don't expect to receive any or all aftermarket accessories free of charge to you?

That'd be a fair point if they had it in giant bold letters on the store page that any good profile costs extra ontop of the monthly fee/large price for a perm key.

 

[Weetbix]

That'd be a fair point if they had it in giant bold letters on the store page that any good profile costs extra ontop of the monthly fee/large price for a perm key.

I'm unaware of your definition of "good profile" or what your intended use for HB is.

If you're referring to questing profiles, then Kick's 1-90 is, in my opinion, the best available. If you're referring to Gatherbuddy profiles I personally would never use a public profile because of the number of people using them, instead make your own. If by "profile" you are referring to combat routines then those included free with HB are perfectly usable.

Re-employing our car analogy and taking into account your personal opinion that all the good stuff costs extra; the same is applicable to every aftermarket product you would purchase, you don't include the best aftermarket components with a car when you purchase it.

Also, the aftermarket components in this case are not developed by the same people who developed Honorbuddy, they are third parties and not associated with the Honorbuddy company. You wouldn't walk into Repco demand a new set of mags for the car you purchased down the road at a different retailer, so why do it here?

EDIT: Please do not misinterpret my comments as argumentative or inflammatory.

 

[mitre27]

EDIT: Please do not misinterpret my comments as argumentative or inflammatory.

Let's be honest, it's hard to have a debate without being argumentative.

 

[frosticus]

im using a cc i paid for. on honorbuddy i paid for. now i wont be able to because i didnt buy my keys from the official site.

whole economies are built on the barter system, yet, here it is not allowed.

edit-i paid for 3 keys from here, and traded a friend for 6 more when quit botting.

 

[Weetbix]

im using a cc i paid for. on honorbuddy i paid for. now i wont be able to because i didnt buy my keys from the official site.

whole economies are built on the barter system, yet, here it is not allowed.

edit-i paid for 3 keys from here, and traded a friend for 6 more when quit botting.

I may be incorrect here, but it is my understanding that if you purchased a product from a third party's website the purchase would be transferred to the buddy store. I would suggest contacting the developer from home you purchased your product.

 

[anti0815]

I think the buddystore its self is a great idea tbh.
The Pricing of the Products offerd is maby a bit to high on some Produkts, but we live in a word everybody wants some money for the work they do and this is fine. The only problem i have is the streaming.
I bot for the fun and becouse its the only way i think this game is fun. Most of the classes i play and Raid with i can play manuel as good as with a decent cc but i enoy so i dont have to do it .
I understand the benifits of the streaming so nobody can steal or give the code away for free. I am no Professional coder nether will i ever be one, I managed over the years to understand a few things and can edit things. But i personally use a few payed cc i have edited to my personal needs. These adjustments maby would have never been made by the editor becouse he dosent need them or dosent want them. Or maby he has an accident or is ill and cant support for few weeks. In worst case this would meen i coldn´t use a Produkt what i have payed for.
My misgiving is so this could spoil the Community of new cooders or Developers.

These are a few of my thought`s.

Sorry for bad spelling and Bad English.

 

[DarkManz]

Re-employing our car analogy and taking into account your personal opinion that all the good stuff costs extra; the same is applicable to every aftermarket product you would purchase, you don't include the best aftermarket components with a car when you purchase it

Using the Car analogy. If I purchased aftermarket parts for my car I would physically own said parts and would be free to reshape, repaint or refit said parts in anyway that I want. The parts would not simply 'Poof' disappear at the sellers whim, or be forced to push updates without consent or choice. The new part may be a total POS that not only does not function as intended, but may also break the car it is attached to and we would be stuck without a "car" until the Dev wakes up, or comes home from vacation to fix it.

Again I say that I am all for supporting Hard working Devs that for a long time have been unappreciated, I am even a fan of HB providing a store for them to share their work rather than forcing shady 3rd party sites in indirect direct advertising that has gone on here for a couple of years now. But the implementation is terrible, the Streaming is maybe the worst idea ever. The lack of shared code will finish of the killing of this community. Many of the Devs are looking at this as a legit money maker, not a "beer funds, help support my coding hobby" and the prices in the store reflect that but the quality of the product does not. If you want me to pay $30+ for a single class CR that Mother fucker had best run completely bug free in every conceivable application, and had best be giving me a blow job while doing it. It is completely fucking ridiculous to pay that much for something that must constantly be baby sat, and have forced updates if you are actually lucky enough to get them and be able to implement them, and be at the total mercy of the Dev who now has 20 projects either under development or that they are concurrently running support for because this is now a job of making money for them rather than a hobby. You are at that Mercy becasuse you cannot quickly edit the bug yourself be underway and report the bug and the fix to the dev for them to implement at a later date because you no longer have access to the code. Fucking complete stupidity, If you are so afraid of your code being stolen or rehashed in some way you are probably not going to survive at this. Write your code, share your code...blow peoples fucking minds. then set of to something better. let the copy pasters have your old shit and set off to blow them away with something new and groundbreaking. Stop living in fear, It forces coders to reinvent the wheel every time a new project is undertaken. and it completely crushes any chance a start up hobby coder has of beginning to understand how to write more complex CR's and profiles. It encourages mistrust and secrecy, it handicaps the community as a whole and it lines the pockets of a few.
Its my $.02 I know it will likely be ignored and almost certainly be flamed at some point, but as a hobby enthusiast I feel pretty let down by the HB team and the Developers that used to be part of this Hobby community that have now turned it into a business model. You have lowered yourselves to the level of the Code thieves that you proclaim to despise by screwing the community out of every dime you can squeeze.