The myth of hacked and/or stolen gold?

[Knut]

Every time I try and have a rational discussion with a WoW player about buying/selling gold, the first reaction I get is "Well, I don't support that because those gold sellers are scum that hacked and stole most of their gold anyway". This idea seems to have been hardwired in most WoW players heads. It's impossible to convince them otherwise, that there are completely legit means of gathering quantities of gold (such as botting with HB, buying/selling at the Auction House, etc), and some people choose to sell their extra gold. But there's no way to convince them otherwise.
Most botters I know (who sell their extra gold) wouldn't go anywhere near a hacked account, for risk of Blizzard investigating and banning all of their accounts. It's a security hazard, not to mention a pretty asshole thing to do in the first place. Kinda like the myth that RL pawn shops like to buy stolen stuff for cheap (they actually end up losing a lot of money on stolen goods http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BGCnyXPy5c).
I also seem to hear this same excuse from various YouTube commentators as a means to demonize the whole practice of gold buying/selling. It's a straw-man argument that doesn't hold much weight. I'm sure some hacked gold does get bought and sold, but when you have a game as large as WoW with the huge amount of gold that's bought and sold on a daily basis, the argument that "most" of it is stolen is just rubbish.
Wanted to get some of your thoughts on this.

 

[Algamish]

To many players, gold obtained through botting is just as tainted as gold off of a stolen account. A lot of people wouldn't take your gold if they knew you obtained it through botting. You're right in that it's not stolen but I would hardly call it legitimate.

 

[Knut]

To many players, gold obtained through botting is just as tainted as gold off of a stolen account. A lot of people wouldn't take your gold if they knew you obtained it through botting. You're right in that it's not stolen but I would hardly call it legitimate.

Well, can we define what "legitimate" gold is? If I'm farming herbs for a few hours, does it really make a difference or not whether I'm sitting at my desk during the time? In the end, it's only me clicking a single button to herb a node. Does it really make the gold "illegitimate" all of a sudden just because a small piece of software does that clicking for me?

 

[Algamish]

Well, can we define what "legitimate" gold is? If I'm farming herbs for a few hours, does it really make a difference or not whether I'm sitting at my desk during the time? In the end, it's only me clicking a single button to herb a node. Does it really make the gold "illegitimate" all of a sudden just because a small piece of software does that clicking for me?

The definition of legitimate would be putting in some sort of time and/or effort to obtain your gold. In the minds of most players, yes, it is completely illegitimate since you (and I) are not doing it ourselves. Some players actually do spend real hours and work on making their gold in WoW. Their gold is legitimate. We are using a very unfair advantage and the majority of players would have a big problem accepting it.

 

[Knut]

The definition of legitimate would be putting in some sort of time and/or effort to obtain your gold. In the minds of most players, yes, it is completely illegitimate since you (and I) are not doing it ourselves. Some players actually do spend real hours and work on making their gold in WoW. Their gold is legitimate. We are using a very unfair advantage and the majority of players would have a big problem accepting it.

But I do put a lot of hard work and effort into making gold. I still have to do a lot of crafting, research prices and list items on the auction house at the right price, farm certain things from dungeons manually, I also write some of my own Honorbuddy profiles (and test them) as well as keeping everything organized across multiple accounts. In the end, it's quite time consuming and takes a lot of effort. I put just as much work into making gold than anyone else does. Only I make more by automating some aspects of it. And about it being an unfair advantage, that might be true, but couldn't one say that these bots are public and anyone could find and use them if they wanted to?

 

[Gilderoy]

in some country (america? ) guns are public and anyone can have one too, so you are impling anyone who do not get a gun and steal from a drugstore is just a stupid that does not know better?
You said bot are public so anyone can use it, well bot are also against the ToS that is the "law" in wow, so..
And yes, botting is not fair, is not right, is not a good thing to do, you can search for exuses but there are none.
In the time a user can get X gold you with a bot will do 10X gold at least using a bot.
Same effort but 10 times the revenue, is not fair, by any means.
Still we do it, live with that or stop
PS: I'm italian so I hope I wrote down my thought correctly

 

[greaterdeath]

The number of people who scam & use bots/h@cks/exploits will always be unknown; however, if you've spent any time visiting the "popular" forums you will realize scammers and "plain" botters frequent the same sites - there's a reason you're warned not to use the same UN and PW on a shady forum as your WoW account. Another myth: blame the Chinese!

So idk if "most" of it is stolen or not, but the fact is gold-selling is a black market and has probably earned its reputation.

 

[Bengan12]

If gold from hacked accounts wasn?t sold why would people hack accounts and take their gold?

OFC some of the gold sold are from hacked accounts, but not all, just like black dimonds, most dimonds are good but some are not.

Also Pawn shops do sell stolen goods, might not be intentionalkly but they just might do, saying this golden necklace was my grand grand mothers and they will sell it for you, stolen or not, but most items are legit, unless you go to the wrong pawn shop who actually specializes in selling stolen goods, they do exist.

 

[Algamish]

But I do put a lot of hard work and effort into making gold. I still have to do a lot of crafting, research prices and list items on the auction house at the right price, farm certain things from dungeons manually, I also write some of my own Honorbuddy profiles (and test them) as well as keeping everything organized across multiple accounts. In the end, it's quite time consuming and takes a lot of effort. I put just as much work into making gold than anyone else does. Only I make more by automating some aspects of it. And about it being an unfair advantage, that might be true, but couldn't one say that these bots are public and anyone could find and use them if they wanted to?

Look, you don't put a lot of hard work or effort into making gold. No one on these forums truly does. Yeah, you may spend a lot of time on making profiles etc., but you make significantly more money per hour than anyone who does not have a bot possibly could. If you don't understand how or why it is an unfair advantage, I am not going to try and explain it to you. Yes, these bots are public and anyone can find and use them. That said, not everyone wants to ch-eat on the games they play. We choose to ch-eat but many would not accept the practice or the gold that comes from it. I can't believe you could even defend the 'work' you do botting as if it's a legitimate means of gold making. We all do it, yeah, but it is important to recognize the difference between the gold earned by legitimate players and the gold we earn.

 

[Gentoo]

Well, can we define what "legitimate" gold is? If I'm farming herbs for a few hours, does it really make a difference or not whether I'm sitting at my desk during the time? In the end, it's only me clicking a single button to herb a node. Does it really make the gold "illegitimate" all of a sudden just because a small piece of software does that clicking for me?

Um, yeah?

 

[Knut]

That said, not everyone wants to ch-eat on the games they play. We choose to ch-eat but many would not accept the practice or the gold that comes from it. I can't believe you could even defend the 'work' you do botting as if it's a legitimate means of gold making. We all do it, yeah, but it is important to recognize the difference between the gold earned by legitimate players and the gold we earn.

I kind of resent being called a "cheater". I don't consider myself a cheater at all. A cheater is someone who uses wallhacks/aimbots in FPSes like CoD or Battlefield and who ruin the game, something which I've never done. Hell, cheating is also if you use speedhacks on BGs in WoW, because it's something that's giving you an unfair advantage in a competitive game. I don't consider automating a grind to be cheating. I'm not doing anything physically impossible in the game that anyone else couldn't do. I'm not faster or more powerful than anyone else in the game. Just because Blizzard says automating a boring process is against the rules, doesn't mean it's cheating. Many dedicated server owners in CoD: Black Ops say using the Last Stand perk is against the rules (if you've played Blops before, you'll know many dedicated servers have this rule in place). Just because they SAY it's against the rules, doesn't make it "cheating" if people still use the Last Stand perk, which everyone freely has the ability to do.

 

[Croga]

Knut;
That's a semantics game. And to finish the semantics game in one fell swoop:
From dictionary.com:

Cheat:
verb (used with object)
1. to defraud; swindle: He cheated her out of her inheritance.
2. to deceive; influence by fraud: He cheated us into believing him a hero.
3. to elude; deprive of something expected: He cheated the law by suicide

verb (used without object)
4. to practice fraud or deceit: She cheats without regrets.
5. to violate rules or regulations: He cheats at cards.
6. to take an examination or test in a dishonest way, as by improper access to answers.
7. Informal . to be sexually unfaithful (often followed by on ): Her husband knew she had been cheating all along. He cheated on his wife.

Now look at #5 there: "To violate rules or regulations". The WoW rules say botting isn't allowed. That means, semantically, that using a bot is cheating. Whether you don't consider it or not is unimportant, the letter says that botting is cheating. Same goes for the example you use from Blops: If a server has a rule in place that Last Stand cannot be used then using Last Stand is cheating by the letter of the definition.

I do feel where you're coming from. I don't consider what I do when botting to be bad. But I don't resend being called a cheater since that is what I am. I just don't really care about it since it doesn't go against my morals.

 

[DaSoul]

In world of warcraft history there NEVER has been any account hacked. NEVER. It is 100% password stealing..nothing more nothing less. If someone loses his account due to malware he got, cause of visiting shitty websites or downloads this is not hacking...this is just plain stupidity.

 

[Knut]

That's a semantics game. And to finish the semantics game in one fell swoop:

Cheat:
verb (used without object)
5. to violate rules or regulations: He cheats at cards.

Now look at #5 there: "To violate rules or regulations". The WoW rules say botting isn't allowed. That means, semantically, that using a bot is cheating. Whether you don't consider it or not is unimportant, the letter says that botting is cheating. Same goes for the example you use from Blops: If a server has a rule in place that Last Stand cannot be used then using Last Stand is cheating by the letter of the definition.

I do feel where you're coming from. I don't consider what I do when botting to be bad. But I don't resend being called a cheater since that is what I am. I just don't really care about it since it doesn't go against my morals.

You're right. Semantically, I may be considered a "cheater" if we're going by the dictionary term, but the word has a negative stigma attached to it, like someone who ruins online matches by using aimbots, wallhacks, or speedhacks (again, something which I've never done). Even in RL, being called a cheater is a horrible thing, like if you cheated at a poker game by peeking at your opponents cards. I never "cheat" in games, whether online or in RL with friends, so I honestly don't consider myself a cheater. I think it's a bit of a stretch to say everyone who uses a bot is a cheater. I mean, it's like how someone says you're a "thief" if you torrent a movie. Just because you downloaded a movie, doesn't mean you were going to purchase it in the first place. http://torrentfreak.com/piracy-is-t...they-dont-exist-says-minecraft-creator-110303 Calling someone a thief would be inaccurate, even if it fits the dictionary term.

 

[Croga]

You're right. Semantically, I may be considered a "cheater" if we're going by the dictionary term, but the word has a negative stigma attached to it, like someone who ruins online matches by using aimbots, wallhacks, or speedhacks (again, something which I've never done). Even in RL, being called a cheater is a horrible thing, like if you cheated at a poker game by peeking at your opponents cards. I never "cheat" in games, whether online or in RL with friends, so I honestly don't consider myself a cheater. I think it's a bit of a stretch to say everyone who uses a bot is a cheater. I mean, it's like how someone says you're a "thief" if you torrent a movie. Just because you downloaded a movie, doesn't mean you were going to purchase it in the first place. Piracy is Theft? Ridiculous. Lost Sales? They Don’t Exist, Says Minecraft Creator | TorrentFreak Calling someone a thief would be inaccurate, even if it fits the dictionary term.

Although I understand your considerations, using a bot is actually a lot like looking at someone's cards in poker. You do gain an unfair advantage in the game in both cases.
Then again; I do support the comparison with the torrents; cheating in poker will cost the other party something whilst botting doesn't necessarily cost anyone else anything (until you analyse the bigger picture of the WoW economy and realise that botting does definitely influence that but to be honest; that's beyond the grasp of most people including myself )

Still; the dictionary is our main source for deciding what word to use to describe the action. The dictionary says this is cheating. Whether or not that has a negative ring to it is not a problem of the dictionary, it's a problem of the weight people give to the word. If you measure yourself by what other people think then yes, you will resent the term. If you measure yourself by your own morals then being a cheater is as much of a problem as you think it is.

 

[silentscope1]

If gold from hacked accounts wasn?t sold why would people hack accounts and take their gold?

OFC some of the gold sold are from hacked accounts, but not all, just like black dimonds, most dimonds are good but some are not.

off topic but I think you mean Blood Diamonds

 

[zuabros]

Hahahaha.... no way botted gold is legit, man.

I go to my bed at night, and when I wake up my char has 200 stacks of obsidium ore and 200 volatile air, which I will sell for 12.000 + 4.000g

How can this be legit?

Its a #*&($*(&#*$&ing unfair advantadge, thats what I say.

 

[Knut]

Although I understand your considerations, using a bot is actually a lot like looking at someone's cards in poker. You do gain an unfair advantage in the game in both cases.
Then again; I do support the comparison with the torrents; cheating in poker will cost the other party something whilst botting doesn't necessarily cost anyone else anything (until you analyse the bigger picture of the WoW economy and realise that botting does definitely influence that but to be honest; that's beyond the grasp of most people including myself )

Still; the dictionary is our main source for deciding what word to use to describe the action. The dictionary says this is cheating. Whether or not that has a negative ring to it is not a problem of the dictionary, it's a problem of the weight people give to the word. If you measure yourself by what other people think then yes, you will resent the term. If you measure yourself by your own morals then being a cheater is as much of a problem as you think it is.

I see what you mean. You make a good point. I suppose I just get a little defensive sometimes when people say I'm a cheater. You're right I should ignore the terms people want to call it, and judge myself based on my own morals. But I guess it just gets under my skin when people want to lump us all in together. Like when someone says "account hackers, cheaters, botters, they're all the same", when that's quite untrue. Very different people, with different sets of morals.