Singular vs Others DPS?

[xaq]

All:

I'm looking for some help here - I read an awful lot of people complain about singular not being optimized or not being good for DPS, so I am looking for some help and alternatives. Let me first say that I am a very adept user of HB, have writen a ton of questing profiles, and am working on a private CC that I can customize for myself... HOWEVER so far my raid DPS and dummy DPS is consistently higher with Singular and Raid bot than any other combination I've tried. Just as an example (yes i realize raid dummy's aren't the end all DPS counter)

539 DW frost DK - 10M DPS tests
Raidbot/Singular - 155.4k
Tyreal/Singular - 153.2k
Raidbot/Pure - 144.4k
Tyreal/Pure - 142.7k

In each of the tests I let them run for 10M to normalize peaks and valley's and to be sure to ONLY include one army, this was NO potions, NO lust, NO raidbuffs - in all situations raidbot outperformed tyreal, and singular outperformed Pure significantly - I also noticed that while raiding raidbot will use utility spells where as Tyreal does not, for example, Tyreal will not battle res, and raidbot does.

My process was like this...

start a DBM timer for 611 seconds
at 605 cast army
at 600 right click dummy
go get pizza and a soda
at 00 stop bot, record results

for Singular I left most values at default, I turned on use raise dead on cooldown
for pure I turned on auto, and enabled all uses.

Although the rotation seemed very similar, singular made better use of things like DnD and howling blast, it also appears to understand the 4 piece set, and I am not sure if pure does.

I guess I'm a bit confused here, I have done significant testing, including TuanHA, and a few others for my DK and I can't get a single one of them to outperform singular, so either I suck at configuring them and am doing something significantly wrong...

The results above mirror what I saw on my 535 BM hunter as well, singular with raidbot was always consistently higher DPS with pure a solid 10-12k behind

I will also say that I attempted to use PQR for the DK (haven't tried hunter yet) and the best PQR rotations available seemed to also lag behind pure....

Thoughts, comments, other? I'd like to optimize my DPS as it is I'm very consistently mid pack in our heroic group, and the hunter is top 2-3 in the same group, but at my ilevel I really should be closer to 1/2 or 2/3 as I am one of the few in our group that has a full 4 piece bonus plus the cape...

I want to be clear I am not looking to start a CC war, I am looking for advice on optimizing mysetups... Please don't turn this into a singular sucks, bob's CC is awesome thread...

-Xaq

 

[Stormchasing]

All:

I'm looking for some help here - I read an awful lot of people complain about singular not being optimized or not being good for DPS, so I am looking for some help and alternatives. Let me first say that I am a very adept user of HB, have writen a ton of questing profiles, and am working on a private CC that I can customize for myself... HOWEVER so far my raid DPS and dummy DPS is consistently higher with Singular and Raid bot than any other combination I've tried. Just as an example (yes i realize raid dummy's aren't the end all DPS counter)

539 DW frost DK - 10M DPS tests
Raidbot/Singular - 155.4k
Tyreal/Singular - 153.2k
Raidbot/Pure - 144.4k
Tyreal/Pure - 142.7k

In each of the tests I let them run for 10M to normalize peaks and valley's and to be sure to ONLY include one army, this was NO potions, NO lust, NO raidbuffs - in all situations raidbot outperformed tyreal, and singular outperformed Pure significantly - I also noticed that while raiding raidbot will use utility spells where as Tyreal does not, for example, Tyreal will not battle res, and raidbot does.

My process was like this...

start a DBM timer for 611 seconds
at 605 cast army
at 600 right click dummy
go get pizza and a soda
at 00 stop bot, record results

for Singular I left most values at default, I turned on use raise dead on cooldown
for pure I turned on auto, and enabled all uses.

Although the rotation seemed very similar, singular made better use of things like DnD and howling blast, it also appears to understand the 4 piece set, and I am not sure if pure does.

I guess I'm a bit confused here, I have done significant testing, including TuanHA, and a few others for my DK and I can't get a single one of them to outperform singular, so either I suck at configuring them and am doing something significantly wrong...

The results above mirror what I saw on my 535 BM hunter as well, singular with raidbot was always consistently higher DPS with pure a solid 10-12k behind

I will also say that I attempted to use PQR for the DK (haven't tried hunter yet) and the best PQR rotations available seemed to also lag behind pure....

Thoughts, comments, other? I'd like to optimize my DPS as it is I'm very consistently mid pack in our heroic group, and the hunter is top 2-3 in the same group, but at my ilevel I really should be closer to 1/2 or 2/3 as I am one of the few in our group that has a full 4 piece bonus plus the cape...

I want to be clear I am not looking to start a CC war, I am looking for advice on optimizing mysetups... Please don't turn this into a singular sucks, bob's CC is awesome thread...

-Xaq

dunno what happened to you but:
- 4 pieces bonus on a dummy? no way to take this into account cause the 4pc bonus affect soul reaper percentage -> dummy never drops this low
- PureRotation auto mode -> will use aoe mode in most situations (dummies are standing too near to each other, so switch to hotkey and enable cooldowns OR raise the aoe count to 5 to get a proper result)

i can only compare pure and PQR atm cause i don't use singular for raiding, and both (pqr and pure) are doin nearly the same dps
10 Millions is not that much ... try 60 Millions to normalize the peaks

well ... for everything else i should try it again on my dk and would need a log (often thought but raising dnd priority but ... never did cause it was okay)
Currently i'm debuging unholy on PureRotation (u should think about switching to UH when u want more DPS! no matter which CR u use, but in all cases UH should do more damage), well back to topic i encountered a problem with UH which is maybe affecting Frost also, but this shouldn't happen on a Dummy-Test.

 

[Xcesius]

Xaq, do you have skype? If you do, could you please give me a pm with it? I also raid DW DK, and I would like your feedback on something.

 

[xaq]

dunno what happened to you but:
- 4 pieces bonus on a dummy? no way to take this into account cause the 4pc bonus affect soul reaper percentage -> dummy never drops this low
- PureRotation auto mode -> will use aoe mode in most situations (dummies are standing too near to each other, so switch to hotkey and enable cooldowns OR raise the aoe count to 5 to get a proper result)

i can only compare pure and PQR atm cause i don't use singular for raiding, and both (pqr and pure) are doin nearly the same dps
10 Millions is not that much ... try 60 Millions to normalize the peaks

well ... for everything else i should try it again on my dk and would need a log (often thought but raising dnd priority but ... never did cause it was okay)
Currently i'm debuging unholy on PureRotation (u should think about switching to UH when u want more DPS! no matter which CR u use, but in all cases UH should do more damage), well back to topic i encountered a problem with UH which is maybe affecting Frost also, but this shouldn't happen on a Dummy-Test.

The DPS dummy testing obviously doesn't activate the 4 piece, however my heroic raiding does and still consistently singular outperforms. I will check my AoE settings on pure but I generally use 3 whenever and wherever I can because in my experience except for thigns like DND there is an overall DPS loss when using AoE spec for single/double targets, at 3 and up the DPS begins to spike with AoE

My experience with PQR was that it didn't even come close to Pure at least for my DW frost. I'd be willing to consider some other rotations but I ended up using I think "youandthree" I'll have to check on my gaming machine and update, that might be the wrong name.

as for UH vs Frost, I will tell you that I don't agree with the theory crafters, many of the end game engagements seem to make very good use of DW frost talents, I did switch to UH for a few weeks and consistently underperformed my DW spec, and 2H spec frost, again this was with PQR, Pure and Singular, the DPS difference was marginal, but it was consistently lower. I've read that UH excels in the 490-515 range, and once in tier 15 gear frost begins to edge it out again. However more importantly I actually know HOW to play a DW frost by hand which makes my gaming experience much more fun for me, so I can and often do take over sometimes depending on the encounter, where as with an UH, I had NEVER played one - with DW frost, I have played once nearly since the beginning of DKs. (both by hand and bots)

Regards - Xaq

 

[Stormchasing]

well my statement didn't came from theorycrafting it came from personal experiences and testing for 3 weeks now
except some heavy aoe situations UH outperforms DW frost by more then 10k dps in each fight

but yeah have to compare Singular/Pure/PQR again ... for both UH and Frost DW and will report back which DK PQR profiles i used for comparison

and with aoe settings ....
u r right 3 is most efficient in raid situations but when u test / compare the routines (especially Pure) and u r using Pure in Automode or Semi-AutoMode u have to set it up to 5 or more, Pure remembers the nearby dummies as adds and enters the AOE rotation, which can't compare to the SingleTarget-Rotation because we ignore some stuff in aoe mode (since most aoe fights aren't long enough to keep track of everything)

 

[xaq]

I'll test again here in a few after this raid is over, but I shoudl clarify when i said 10M i meant 10 minutes, not 10M, so DPS is closer to 90-95M... I Tested UH in 535+ gear for weeks and in general it underperformed frost for me. FWIW I Am gemmed geared and spec'd heavily towards frost, so even though I DID regem and reforge and everything I certainly may not have had BiS gear like I do for frost...

 

[xaq]

okay so post raid time.

Singular + Raidbot still comes in at a consistent 155k+ this time it was 155.2k over the course of 10 minutes, right at 93.3 million in damage
pure + tyreal with the AOE settings set to 7, so as not to confuse ANY aoe necessity with the dummy's is more than 20k lower, 133.7k over 10 minutes, just over 80 million in damage (80,366,000)

Tyreal was set at 40TPS with frame lock. I also saw numerous lua errors show up in the log.

[PureRotation 2.1.5]:  Lua Failed in GetSpellCooldown

I'd be interested to see what PQR routines you're using and try those, but so far in all the testing i've done the closest anything has come is death vader/tyreal combo but still appears to be lagging behind about 5k - which doesn't seem like much except when you're looking at 10 minute + heroic fights, it can be the difference between 95 million damage done or 80 million.

-Xaq

 

[Stormchasing]

well ... failed lua could be a reason, cause we don't get the correct values AND (more important) it will cost time to catch up the error... time were we could use a spell but are busy with getting the error

this is one part i found yesterday in UH, stopping the routine from performing and i'm working on it, the issues exists since the "performance update" of hb
i'm sure we can beat Singular after fixing this

edit: could u add the log here? so that i can take a look into it, if i can see some more errors and so

 

[xaq]

Here is the log, note that at the end after I was done testing I just closed wow which is why there are errors... I do not have the singular log as I delete the logs every time I start my HB up, but I can take a singular log for you if you'd like. Also of note this is not a DEBUG log, I can certainly take one - so I suspect this isn't much use to you, but uploading anyway

Servers are down until about 2-3pm today i think, I'll try to get debug logs back to back of singular vs pure