RE: Downtime Model

[Infinite Monkeys]

Downtime Model

One of the biggest areas of confusion a lot of users seem to have, for some reason, is why we have frequent downtime, or lengthy downtime cycles after major client updates.

We always see wild conspiracies posted, and a lot of people saying really negative things, or spreading false rumors.

The answer is very simple: our project is heavily dependent on the entire client as a whole, not just a few parts.

We don't expect anyone to truly understand what this means, but you don't get what Exilebuddy offers with little to no work or effort. Right now, Exilebuddy has just passed being a 4-year investment, and I can't even estimate how many total hours have been spent on this project, but it's exponentially greater than you could ever guess. Yes, it's that much work.

Exilebuddy is not the type of project where we can throw a few hours of work each day or week, and then have what we currently do. What we have, is the result of a significant time and resource investment that we are really proud of, and we do take pride in what we offer, even though sometimes it doesn't look like much to users.

Because of this, and how much we really do care about the project and are invested, we do things our way, and ensure we're comfortable with the state of the project before doing any new releases. We will never jeopardize our project for the sake of appeasing users who simply want us to do things their way, and have us abandon the practices that got us here in the first place.

While we try our best to keep downtime limited, Path of Exile is a really complex game, and more things affect us on a regular basis than other projects. We don't talk about every single issue that affects us, because most people wouldn't understand, and it's just part of the job, but when there's downtime, we need it.

Regardless of what nonsense people spam our forums with, please understand we only take as much downtime as we need, and our aim is to have Exilebuddy up and running as soon as possible after any update. If Path of Exile was a game that only updated once a month in a minor way, Exilebuddy would rarely have any downtime. However, that's not the case, so things are the way they are as a result of the game, not anything we're trying to hide from users.

You can call it nonsense and assume we have no experience developing complex projects with dependencies all you want. There was a big list of API and feature updates in 3.0 which should've been pushed weeks ago or postponed so that the only things that needed updating were the offsets and whatever actually changed in 3.0 (excluding the quests, a grindbot would've been fine at first), rather than spending a bunch of time writing new code when 3.0 is out. The early league rush is already over.

When new Runescape or WOW content is released, it doesn't take 2 weeks for the bots to start working again. For example, RuneMate has a very similar 'we build the API, you make the bots' system and they're able to deal with weekly updates with barely any downtime. That's because they don't add a bunch of new things when their bot needs updating, they fix it first.

 

[d3vourm3nt]

hi can i ask if the bot is up now ?

 

[darkbluefirefly]

You can call it nonsense and assume we have no experience developing complex projects with dependencies all you want. There was a big list of API and feature updates in 3.0 which should've been pushed weeks ago or postponed so that the only things that needed updating were the offsets and whatever actually changed in 3.0 (excluding the quests, a grindbot would've been fine at first), rather than spending a bunch of time writing new code when 3.0 is out. The early league rush is already over.

When new Runescape or WOW content is released, it doesn't take 2 weeks for the bots to start working again. For example, RuneMate has a very similar 'we build the API, you make the bots' system and they're able to deal with weekly updates with barely any downtime. That's because they don't add a bunch of new things when their bot needs updating, they fix it first.

Ok infinite, please write some actual code then speak. Get a real job and stop depending on botting as a source of income?

And you're not allowed to have a donate link in your sig.

 

[JUSTAPLAYER123]

Kk fine

 

[Infinite Monkeys]

Ok infinite, please write some actual code then speak.

If there was proper API documentation (example) then I would.

Get a real job and stop depending on botting as a source of income?

I don't, I haven't earned a penny from it. I do it as a hobby.

And you're not allowed to have a donate link in your sig.

You were when I put it there, or at least plenty of people did.

Also none of this refutes my point. All you can do is insult me because you have no argument.

 

[pushedx]

If there was proper API documentation (example) then I would.

There's nothing I can say to convince you otherwise about everything you've already expressed that you don't like about us and the way we do things, but if you are legitimately serious about wanting to contribute to Exilebuddy community code, then we are willing to offer help to anyone to make sure they have what they need to be successful coding for our product.

The "Help/Documentation.chm" that comes along with the bot is the main source of "real" documentation comparable to what you linked. For C# languages, Visual Studio and the object explorer is the other main way to get access to stuff. Of course, you need a final build to make use of that, but that's a different issue to what you're talking about.

I won't offer an argument on the issue of "online" vs "offline" documentation hosting though, but my point is we do have that type of info available, it's just in a different format, specific to the platform and operating system we target.

This is the current CHM that will be shipping with the new builds going out really soon: https://www.dropbox.com/s/47c4itd59tapw8n/Documentation.chm?dl=0

If that's not "real" documentation, please explain what you are looking for vs what we actually have and we can see about making it better. There have been many threads posted in the guides section (which I've just recently moderated so they're no longer visible, since I'll be trying to consolidate the information into the 3.0 reference thread) that gives an overview of each aspect of the API and where to find general things in our API.

The best source of documentation though is showing all our non-API code implementations though. Users can see and modify things to get an idea of the API coverage. One issue we know we need to improve upon, and this will come after 3.0, is providing usable dev solutions that can be loaded up without having to recreate them. However, most people who are interested in dev should be able to do this themselves, as this stuff is not for beginners.

One of the biggest obstacles that there's no easy solution for, is how to convey a lot of information in a limited amount of space, in such a way that people just don't bother reading it or take the time to find what they are looking for. There was a time when we had no documentation at all, no guides, and people just had to guess how to do things. Progress has been made on that front since over the years, and given how many people I know who have made amazing things with little assistant from us, I don't think our setup is as dire as you're imagining.

Yes, there will be a steep learning curve, a lot of frustrations, and maybe it's even overwhelming at the start, but as you spend more time with it and get familiar with how things are done, I think you'll come to find it can be a rewarding challenge. Path of Exile is certainly not a game for everyone. Exilebuddy is certainly not a bot for everyone. We've always been more on the "DIY" side of things, because the game was never finished, the client is always changing, and it takes more time and resources to keep things going than you can imagine.

Hopefully that will change with 3.0 now, but only time will tell. In any case, we remain dedicated to our approach and supporting the community do the things they want while keeping our offerings in line with what we can support.

 

[darkbluefirefly]

pushedx, a script kiddie like him changing a few lines of code a monkey can do, won't know what an api is, even if it's in front of him.
he clearly didn't read your posts at all, especially, https://www.thebuddyforum.com/threads/exilebuddy-3-0-reference-thread.406684/#post-2523703
Where there is no major code rebase.

You can call it nonsense and assume we have no experience developing complex projects with dependencies all you want. There was a big list of API and feature updates in 3.0 which should've been pushed weeks ago or postponed so that the only things that needed updating were the offsets and whatever actually changed in 3.0 (excluding the quests, a grindbot would've been fine at first), rather than spending a bunch of time writing new code when 3.0 is out. The early league rush is already over.

Bra, do you even read? New shit gets added, there has to be api for it, which is what takes time, pushedx isn't rewriting the whole bot, jesus.

You can call it nonsense and assume we have no experience developing complex projects with dependencies all you want

There is no "we" in "you".
You are the one with no experience, and overall ignorant of what real coders do.
Please remove that community dev tag, you are confusing people, they actually think you dev.

 

[Infinite Monkeys]

I know I'm being a dick but you guys have what could be a great product, so it's frustrating to see it not do as well as it should. Every single league for years has had the same week plus long bot fixing time, and I honestly think it's having a bigger impact on your business than you realise. I stuck with it when you took away my lifetime license, which I wouldn't let many companies get away with, because it's worth it when the bot works.

RE: API documentation, back when I tried it the only information in Visual Studio was method names IIRC (this was a year or two ago). There was no information on parameters, return types, exceptions, etc so the only way to work out how a particular method worked was to find it used somewhere else. For example, I had no idea what the boolean arg for the 'use skill' method was and had to spend hours hunting through other peoples' code to work out it was an 'attack in place' setting. All of this could've been improved since last time I tried, in which case perfect.

pushedx, a script kiddie like him changing a few lines of code a monkey can do, won't know what an api is, even if it's in front of him.
he clearly didn't read your posts at all, especially, https://www.thebuddyforum.com/threads/exilebuddy-3-0-reference-thread.406684/#post-2523703
Where there is no major code rebase.


Bra, do you even read? New shit gets added, there has to be api for it, which is what takes time, pushedx isn't rewriting the whole bot, jesus.

Do you even read? My whole point is that new shit shouldn't be added right now.

There is no "we" in "you".
You are the one with no experience, and overall ignorant of what real coders do.
Please remove that community dev tag, you are confusing people, they actually think you dev.

My hobby of developing bots is useful to hundreds of people. How many people does your hobby of trolling on bot forums help?

 

[darkbluefirefly]

If you are developing bots, i'm the pope.

RE: API documentation, back when I tried it the only information in Visual Studio was method names IIRC (this was a year or two ago). There was no information on parameters, return types, exceptions, etc so the only way to work out how a particular method worked was to find it used somewhere else. For example, I had no idea what the boolean arg for the 'use skill' method was and had to spend hours hunting through other peoples' code to work out it was an 'attack in place' setting. All of this could've been improved since last time I tried, in which case perfect.

You're a supposed "developer", yet you're bitching about Missing API, that wasn't there a year ago, then you say new api should't be added? Mate do you logic?
Alt+f12 to see the method, it's invocations, refactor it, etc.
Seriously, why are you still trying? Changing a few lines of code is not developing, it's being a script kiddie.
Basing knowledge on a few years ago as the current argument is ignorance.

"Well, I guess a few years ago, there was no api, so there shouldn't be one now. Eb Devs must have been sitting on his ass twiddling his thumb, herp a derp." /s

Mate do you even logic?

What's that shitty pic you posted? I have absolutely no clue what it is and probably 100% of everyone here, useless information to argue. We have a nickname for you on the dev channel. If I posted it here you probably report my post like you do all my other ones cause you're just like that.

 

[pushedx]

RE: API documentation, back when I tried it the only information in Visual Studio was method names IIRC (this was a year or two ago). There was no information on parameters, return types, exceptions, etc so the only way to work out how a particular method worked was to find it used somewhere else. For example, I had no idea what the boolean arg for the 'use skill' method was and had to spend hours hunting through other peoples' code to work out it was an 'attack in place' setting. All of this could've been improved since last time I tried, in which case perfect.

Yes, years ago we were in much worse shape when it comes to documentation and forum posts. It's a lot better now, not perfect, but then again it's really hard to keep things up to date when we under go so many changes due to the game changing.

There's a few APIs that aren't fully documented most likely, but there has been a big transition to trying to properly document anything new. In theory, properly documenting things as they are added seems logical, but remember most things that are added come after big updates, so that time is better spent just getting things working again, then going back. However, when you're never really able to get ahead of the game's patch cycle because you keep getting more and more things to do, eventually you end up where we were.

Basically we look at it like this, if the game only updated say once or twice a month, and wasn't changing core things on a regular basis and instead just doing content updates like the majority of the games we have bots for, everyone would be 100% correct in our setup being a joke and we literally would have no excuse for things being the state they are.

However, the sheer number of game changes that take effect (100+ patches a year), which have involved modifying the core game engine literally since the game launched, has created this issue where EB will never be like any other stable bot we have until the game itself becomes stable and stops changing. APIs in general should stay stable and not change much, but that's impossible achieve when the game itself is always changing the way things work.

New 3.0 specific documentation about the core updates posted in the reference threads will take some time to get adjusted to, but basically the evolution of our changes comes down to "can development changes be made so everyone's life is easier". If the answer is yes, changes are done (which is what a lot of the 3.0 updates pre-closed beta represent).

I know a lot of things we say sound just like excuses, but when it comes to PoE/EB stuff, this is the harsh reality we exist in, and it's always been the case which is why Exilebuddy is Exilebuddy. I've seen some of our other projects, and have been around a few of our other games, and let me tell you, it's night and day between how PoE is operated and everything else.

 

[Infinite Monkeys]

You're a supposed "developer", yet you're bitching about Missing API, that wasn't there a year ago, then you say new api should't be added? Mate do you logic?

It shouldn't be added right after a new version of the game is released when the bot is down, but it should be released. That's what I've been saying all along, and it's not a super hard idea to understand, but I guess you're having trouble with it. Let me put it in terms you might understand: "No make big update when bot no work, make bot work first then make big update".

Basing knowledge on a few years ago as the current argument is ignorance.

"Well, I guess a few years ago, there was no api, so there shouldn't be one now. Eb Devs must have been sitting on his ass twiddling his thumb, herp a derp." /s

My developing is totally irrelevant, you are the one that brought it up. This discussion is about the downtime model of EB. You're the one that brought up me not developing much, and I said it was because when I tried the API was shit. Not that how much code I write even matters in a discussion on the actions of a company that I'm a customer of.

What's that shitty pic you posted? I have absolutely no clue what it is and probably 100% of everyone here, useless information to argue.

Try working it out from context. Humans have brains that allow us to do that. If you use yours it will benefit you in this and many other areas of life.

We have a nickname for you on the dev channel. If I posted it here you probably report my post like you do all my other ones cause you're just like that.

I haven't reported anything? Also that's pathetic, you have your own little club where you make up mean names for people you disagree with? What are you, a child?

You're talking a lot of shit for a person who contributes literally nothing useful, by the way. What have you done to give you the right to judge other people's efforts?

 

[Infinite Monkeys]

Basically we look at it like this, if the game only updated say once or twice a month, and wasn't changing core things on a regular basis and instead just doing content updates like the majority of the games we have bots for, everyone would be 100% correct in our setup being a joke and we literally would have no excuse for things being the state they are.

However, the sheer number of game changes that take effect (100+ patches a year), which have involved modifying the core game engine literally since the game launched, has created this issue where EB will never be like any other stable bot we have until the game itself becomes stable and stops changing. APIs in general should stay stable and not change much, but that's impossible achieve when the game itself is always changing the way things work.

I don't fault you for the API being behind, I'm sure it's incredibly hard to keep updated, that was just an explanation of why I haven't written much. My criticism is basically that at the start of a new league, the sole focus should be getting a working bot out, whether it's just mapping, or just grinding zones, or whatever it has to be. It seems like whenever POE has a content patch, EB has a major update, so the release of the bot is delayed until all the new features are working.

 

[darkbluefirefly]

I don't even know why I waste my time. Jesus, i guess concepts on another plane is too hard for you to grasp.

My developing is totally irrelevant, you are the one that brought it up.

You can call it nonsense and assume we have no experience developing complex projects with dependencies all you want.

wat.

 

[nezoic]

There is a LOT of developer effort that goes into a updating for a patch this big, let me try to explain the way that best works with my users / business people that have the same confusion with large scope projects / code changes.

Pretend that you have a house with many floors and rooms, you then create a robot that goes around and cleans all of those rooms. That robot is based on very specific logic that must understand the layout of every floor, every room, every bit of furniture that could possibly trip it up so it can avoid getting stuck, where and how to plug in a vacuum cleaner, etc...

Now a normal update would simply change a room, rearrange some furniture or in some cases an entire floor. That would take probably take a few hours to a couple days to update, something you currently expect, and rightfully so, it's not THAT big of a deal usually.

However, THIS update basically took another house and stacked it on top of an existing house. To do that it had to change a lot of load bearing walls, various parts of the foundation to hold the additional weight and all kinds of other little things like electricity, plumbing etc. On top of that you still need to teaching the bot about the new rooms, furniture, etc. This is much more than a couple days worth of work unless you want it be a 1/2 assed fix that ends up being broken every other day.

Does that make sense now?

 

[darkbluefirefly]

@nezoic where have you been all my life.

 

[nezoic]

@nezoic where have you been all my life.

Stuck writing enterprise applications mostly... trying to find time to dive into some PoE projects though, much more interesting, and fun!

 

[Infinite Monkeys]

There is a LOT of developer effort that goes into a updating for a patch this big, let me try to explain the way that best works with my users / business people that have the same confusion with large scope projects / code changes.

Pretend that you have a house with many floors and rooms, you then create a robot that goes around and cleans all of those rooms. That robot is based on very specific logic that must understand the layout of every floor, every room, every bit of furniture that could possibly trip it up so it can avoid getting stuck, where and how to plug in a vacuum cleaner, etc...

Now a normal update would simply change a room, rearrange some furniture or in some cases an entire floor. That would take probably take a few hours to a couple days to update, something you currently expect, and rightfully so, it's not THAT big of a deal usually.

However, THIS update basically took another house and stacked it on top of an existing house. To do that it had to change a lot of load bearing walls, various parts of the foundation to hold the additional weight and all kinds of other little things like electricity, plumbing etc. On top of that you still need to teaching the bot about the new rooms, furniture, etc. This is much more than a couple days worth of work unless you want it be a 1/2 assed fix that ends up being broken every other day.

Does that make sense now?

If they add a new house every 6 months like clockwork, and announce that weeks in advance, maybe you should build a robot that can cope with that? This happens every league.

 

[darkbluefirefly]

If they add a new house every 6 months like clockwork, and announce that weeks in advance, maybe you should build a robot that can cope with that? This happens every league.

Like Clockwork? Are you incompetent? Show me clockwork.

How about you actually connect 2 wires to motor first and see if it works before you start telling others to build robots.

One step at a time.

 

[Infinite Monkeys]

Like Clockwork? Are you incompetent? Show me clockwork.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Path_of_Exile#Expansions
Plus or minus a couple of months. Every major expansion is announced months in advance, anyway.

How about you actually connect 2 wires to motor first and see if it works before you start telling others to build robots.

One step at a time.

I don't need to be capable of building a robot to have the right to complain when the robot I pay for breaks every 6 months. PC broken? You can't complain unless you've made one from iron and silicon ores. Politicians are corrupt? Better run for President before you criticise.

 

[darkbluefirefly]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Path_of_Exile#Expansions
Plus or minus a couple of months. Every major expansion is announced months in advance, anyway.
Months are not clockwork, Jesus, is your reality so construed to your ignorant self that you're trying to make false facts?

I don't need to be capable of building a robot to have the right to complain when the robot I pay for breaks every 6 months. PC broken? You can't complain unless you've made one from iron and silicon ores. Politicians are corrupt? Better run for President before you criticise.

I have no clue where you are going with this, the context and metaphors are abstract at best grade grade school level.
When your intellect has actually progressed to a level, maybe I can actually converse.

Why the hell are you blaming the robot for breaking when it's the expansions breaking it? You really deserve the nickname iron retard.