Enough with the detection discussions!

[asrah]

My account, which i have leveled 9 toons from either 90-100 (90s from MOP, and a boosted Paladin), has not gotten any bans, or even a warning. I was NOT online during the tripwire event.

Yes, there are varying circumstances, no HB has not been "detected" in the traditional sense. If anything, Blizzard can tell what programs are doing when they interact with WoW, but theres no automatic statistic reporting as its required by USA law to allow an opt out. Blizzard has decided to not even deal with the reporting, which is why theres no opt out procedure. Enough with the speculation, enough with the frankly laughable nonsense that comes out of this forum. I havent seen a single theory that even REMOTELY matches anti cheat measures.

Thank you all for trying to help Bossland and the devs keep HB afloat. However you are of absolutely NO use to them. They can do their jobs. Leave it be.

 

[littleb2017]

Jesus why is there no upvote button. 99\100 people here have no freaking idea how warden works. Just let it go you got caught.

 

[langers]

And yes Asrah...your very post is speculation.... you have no more facts or figures than people posting to say it is detectable?
My personal opinion (note I say opinion) having run a number of accounts clean and separate from each other is that Blizzard are simply looking at stats (think you were suggesting that), for example a group of clients running 32 bit WOW on a 64 bit OS (they can detect that), click to move enabled (small number of people will run this anyway) and a group of accounts that seemingly run the same number of quests in a similar order (Kicks quest pack), if I was given the job at blizzard to find and ban bots its what I would search for but again...its my opinion and not fact.

 

[Pierlala]

It is obvious that HB is or atleast was detected at some point. And all people who are claiming different are just blind. All you self proclaimed lucky ones out there, who are still up and running or made new accounts after the big banwave. I hope you realize that all of us thought we were "safe" at one point. But you seem to forget that a certain thing can and imo will happen again. Not now maybe, but in a month or 1-2. So you may think you're lucky and feel safe that you haven't been caught, but sooner or later Blizzard needs to show their integrity to the complaining playerbase and wipe us all off the map again.

We can all see that after the big banwave people got banned within hours sometimes minutes of playing on a newly created or new battle.net accounts. For questing/rotations etc. Things that barely or never gave any bans before except when done out of the ordinairy, like questing 24/7 or getting stuck.

So to simply say that we should all just stop and put our heads back into the sand is just stupid. Ofcourse people will speculate and discuss. Like someone said before, the banwave took away our sense of immortality. And that's exactly how I feel.

I stopped botting myself. I got a 6 month ban on both accounts but it was worth it. Cause the bot helped me a lot. I don't have the time to sit and play 24/7 and do the same quests over and over to level alts. HB helped me with it and I'm thankful for it. I must admit that playing WoW without the bot just killled it a little for me. It took away the fun and feeling of progression while I could sort out my IRL stuff and still enjoy the game. But it's not worth losing years of effort and time permanently. I do watch these forums cause I am still cusious what's going on. Atleast untill my 6 month suspension ends.

But the OP post sounds just like every HB fanboy. Not fond of people who live in denial.

 

[asrah]

And yes Asrah...your very post is speculation.... you have no more facts or figures than people posting to say it is detectable?
My personal opinion (note I say opinion) having run a number of accounts clean and separate from each other is that Blizzard are simply looking at stats (think you were suggesting that), for example a group of clients running 32 bit WOW on a 64 bit OS (they can detect that), click to move enabled (small number of people will run this anyway) and a group of accounts that seemingly run the same number of quests in a similar order (Kicks quest pack), if I was given the job at blizzard to find and ban bots its what I would search for but again...its my opinion and not fact.

I have experience with the subject, leave it at that. My post isnt speculation, and youd know that if youd actually do some research into anti cheat and process monitoring in general. If you actually think Blizzard logs every single action every character takes you REALLY need a reality check. Detailed logging takes a fair amount of CPU power. There is absolutely no friggin way Blizzard is monitoring anywhere from 3-8 million daily players' activities in any way meaningful to anti cheat.

Just, do some research. Unless you want to be hardheaded about the issue youll see im correct.

It is obvious that HB is or atleast was detected at some point. And all people who are claiming different are just blind. All you self proclaimed lucky ones out there, who are still up and running or made new accounts after the big banwave. I hope you realize that all of us thought we were "safe" at one point. But you seem to forget that a certain thing can and imo will happen again. Not now maybe, but in a month or 1-2. So you may think you're lucky and feel safe that you haven't been caught, but sooner or later Blizzard needs to show their integrity to the complaining playerbase and wipe us all off the map again.

We can all see that after the big banwave people got banned within hours sometimes minutes of playing on a newly created or new battle.net accounts. For questing/rotations etc. Things that barely or never gave any bans before except when done out of the ordinairy, like questing 24/7 or getting stuck.

So to simply say that we should all just stop and put our heads back into the sand is just stupid. Ofcourse people will speculate and discuss. Like someone said before, the banwave took away our sense of immortality. And that's exactly how I feel.

I stopped botting myself. I got a 6 month ban on both accounts but it was worth it. Cause the bot helped me a lot. I don't have the time to sit and play 24/7 and do the same quests over and over to level alts. HB helped me with it and I'm thankful for it. I must admit that playing WoW without the bot just killled it a little for me. It took away the fun and feeling of progression while I could sort out my IRL stuff and still enjoy the game. But it's not worth losing years of effort and time permanently. I do watch these forums cause I am still cusious what's going on. Atleast untill my 6 month suspension ends.

But the OP post sounds just like every HB fanboy. Not fond of people who live in denial.

I made a post about the technical details of the matter. Get your head out of your egotistical nether region. If i speak doomsday about HB im "reasonable" if i give technical details about anti cheat then im "a fanboy." No, thats not how it works. Im not in denial, im informed, and the conclusion is that theres no doomsday around the corner.

Whoever has gotten banned on an account created after the banwave is either playing an account on the same hardware, same IP, etc, or is doing very risky things like farming mobs, gathering for professions, or botting battlegrounds. I know it can be different on other servers, but i see maybe 1-3 other people in sub 90 zones maybe once every 2-3 zones in azeroth, most of outland, all of northrend, and most of pandaria. I play on Darkspear, plus theres CRZ for high pop realms now.

If youd like to learn how detection actually works youll quickly find that if HB was "detected" as in, a scan is done, and HB is identified as a cheat/hack/bot whatever you want to call it, thered be IMMEDIATE bans, as warden can and DOES issue automatic bans, if warden detects a cheat/hack/bot program. PERIOD, end of story. All the banwave did is weed out people who got reported, or were being monitored because warden flagged them. Warden will flag accounts logged in from a client where a program is hooked into it. Blizzard doesnt monitor every single character thats logged in. There has to be a flag set in a database, before logging is done.

Calling my posts speculation doesnt actually make it speculation. Try becoming educated before you talk. If you understand what Warden looks for, and what it does when it finds something, you quickly come to realize that HB is fine. Facts of the matter are currently in favor of HB, theres no fanboying.

 

[Morga]

Just so you understand about business. Discussions and theories are good. While the HB team has kept relatively quiet on the forums it does not mean they do not read the different theories of what has happened. As a business owner myself, I always welcome ideas, theories, criticism and the like concerning my business. Sometimes people/devs may miss an important piece of information or a theory/discussion may help them to look in different direction and find a solution or identify the problem. I see nothing wrong with people sharing.
If the HB doesn't want discussions, facts, theories from their clients then shut down the forums and go private.

 

[asrah]

Just so you understand about business. Discussions and theories are good. While the HB team has kept relatively quiet on the forums it does not mean they do not read the different theories of what has happened. As a business owner myself, I always welcome ideas, theories, criticism and the like concerning my business. Sometimes people/devs may miss an important piece of information or a theory/discussion may help them to look in different direction and find a solution or identify the problem. I see nothing wrong with people sharing.
If the HB doesn't want discussions, facts, theories from their clients then shut down the forums and go private.

Not sure if youre disagreeing with me or not. Just in case, again, do some research about process monitoring, about anti cheat methods. You cant just call everything anyone says a theory or guess. Facts are facts, and someone out there knows them.

 

[ryftobuddy]

If youd like to learn how detection actually works youll quickly find that if HB was "detected" as in, a scan is done, and HB is identified as a cheat/hack/bot whatever you want to call it, thered be IMMEDIATE bans, as warden can and DOES issue automatic bans, if warden detects a cheat/hack/bot program. PERIOD, end of story. All the banwave did is weed out people who got reported, or were being monitored because warden flagged them. Warden will flag accounts logged in from a client where a program is hooked into it. Blizzard doesnt monitor every single character thats logged in. There has to be a flag set in a database, before logging is done.

Where's your proof of this fact? I have seen zero evidence that this is true, but if you'd like to provide it, I may actually believe something you've written.

And you spouting nonsense about how you can "opt out" of detection. That may be true, but you first would have to prove that Blizzard is using such detection, which means you have to open a lawsuit against them, get a judge to allow you to start discovering their information, weed through millions of documents and then present that information in a court of law while Blizz's legal team buries you and delays any court procedings.

Calling your posts speculation is very fitting seeming how you've provided zero facts in your posts. Until you prove said facts, all you are doing is speculating.

 

[pimpampum]

I have experience with the subject, leave it at that. My post isnt speculation, and youd know that if youd actually do some research into anti cheat and process monitoring in general. If you actually think Blizzard logs every single action every character takes you REALLY need a reality check. Detailed logging takes a fair amount of CPU power. There is absolutely no friggin way Blizzard is monitoring anywhere from 3-8 million daily players' activities in any way meaningful to anti cheat.

Just, do some research. Unless you want to be hardheaded about the issue youll see im correct.

I stopped reading there. This is utterly ridiculous.

I'm willing to bet you have not a fucking clue at all about what you're talking about. AT ALL.

Yeah, you are a fanboy. Nothing wrong with that, only that speaking like you did (pretending you know anything , and then making it obvious you don't) hurts more than helps.

 

[asrah]

Where's your proof of this fact? I have seen zero evidence that this is true, but if you'd like to provide it, I may actually believe something you've written.

And you spouting nonsense about how you can "opt out" of detection. That may be true, but you first would have to prove that Blizzard is using such detection, which means you have to open a lawsuit against them, get a judge to allow you to start discovering their information, weed through millions of documents and then present that information in a court of law while Blizz's legal team buries you and delays any court procedings.

Calling your posts speculation is very fitting seeming how you've provided zero facts in your posts. Until you prove said facts, all you are doing is speculating.

First off, get familiar with how things work. For one, it is required by USA law that any company operating within the country have an opt out procedure for sharing information stored on the home computer, EVEN if that information is critical to anti cheat measures. Period, end of story on that. Blizzard is not going to violate those laws, its far too easy for any novice computer user to detect that activity with a program that monitors and logs what a process does. I dont have to prove they arent doing it, i already KNOW they arent. I also know Blizzard as a company isnt gonna risk the millions in fines if so much as one person compiles a set of logs showing that a Blizzard program is sending information to them without permission, or the ability to opt out.

Its not speculation, i understand how this stuff works. If you did, youd understand its not speculation. Funny how facts work, huh? Its not my problem that you know jack crap about this. You can scream about me not giving any evidence, but the evidence is in how Warden works. Nothing else is needed. Try learning instead of running off at the mouth. Questioning facts means youre ignorant of a subject. It does not mean that i have done anything wrong, or am fanboying, or am incorrect. My reason for even making this thread is because of the amount of people who open their mouths when its obvious they have NO idea what they are talking about.

Ive given nothing but facts. Its really easy for the ignorant to tell others that what they say is speculation, or incorrect. If you would educate yourself on the matter, you might not put your foot in your mouth.

I stopped reading there. This is utterly ridiculous.

I'm willing to bet you have not a fucking clue at all about what you're talking about. AT ALL.

Yeah, you are a fanboy. Nothing wrong with that, only that speaking like you did (pretending you know anything , and then making it obvious you don't) hurts more than helps.

"I disagree, so im gonna personally attack you, and call you a fanboy." Fixed that for you. Also, im neither here nor there about HonorBuddy. Sure its nice to be able to avoid leveling a class i want to try for the first time, but i could live without it. To say im a fanboy is to claim knowledge you cant possibly have. Are you claiming to be psychic? To be able to know exactly what i think and how i feel and my level of loyalty, or lack thereof, to Bossland?

Just leave it at that i have experience and so far, all you folks have done is reinforce my point about how the HB community tends to not know jack about anti cheat. I bet if one of the devs came in and read this thread, they wouldnt miss the obvious truths. If HB was detected in such a surefire was as is continuously implied, wed ALL be banned. That, if nothing else, should be OBVIOUS. However its not, and unfortunately thats typical of younger users of the internet. Yes, im calling you a teenager. If you arent, start acting like it. Debate with some sense. Dont attack people, attack the point. Provide some logs or data when you make claims that fly in the face of current working knowledge of Warden and Bossland and companys constant attempts to be ahead of Blizzard.

The point of the thread isnt even to chastise people, its to get people to shut up about how HB doomsday is around the corner every time someone gets banned. Ive proven my point about the HB community. Youre not helping, you cant help, you wont be of help. Its how its gonna be until people decide to become educated on the subject instead of calling everyone else wrong whenever someone says anything thats not "HB is doomed."

 

[ryftobuddy]

You once again provided zero evidence as to how warden works. So once again, there's nothing you've stated here that's a fact. Show me some actual documentation, directly from Blizzard, that states that if something is found to be in violation and is caught by Warden, that an immediate ban is issued. Oh wait, you can't provide that information? That's what I thought.

If you think that companies aren't spying on your private data, you're delusional. Hell, the NSA built an enormous complex not 10 miles from my house that's entire purpose is snooping on US citizens. They may be in violation of US law by doing it, but that would require you to prove in a court of law that they are violating our rights. Which means you would have to sue them, which is exactly what I said.

Go on babbling that you've stated nothing but facts though. Everyone else in this thread can clearly see that you've provided nothing but speculations.

 

[asrah]

You once again provided zero evidence as to how warden works. So once again, there's nothing you've stated here that's a fact. Show me some actual documentation, directly from Blizzard, that states that if something is found to be in violation and is caught by Warden, that an immediate ban is issued. Oh wait, you can't provide that information? That's what I thought.

If you think that companies aren't spying on your private data, you're delusional. Hell, the NSA built an enormous complex not 10 miles from my house that's entire purpose is snooping on US citizens. They may be in violation of US law by doing it, but that would require you to prove in a court of law that they are violating our rights. Which means you would have to sue them, which is exactly what I said.

Go on babbling that you've stated nothing but facts though. Everyone else in this thread can clearly see that you've provided nothing but speculations.

Once again, and this is the last time im gonna say this. If you actually knew how Warden works, youd know that what ive stated is correct. Go ... educate ... yourself. Im not gonna do your research for you. My point still stands, HB community has little to no working knowledge of Warden as a general rule. Period, end of story. Everyone in this thread can say im speculating all they want to. If theyd become educated theyd see thats not the case. Go ahead, keep showing people who do in fact know how Warden works that you are completely ignorant. Calling facts speculation is stupid, my friend. No matter how many times you say they arent facts, they are. You sound like a teenager whos trying to convince their parents they have it all figured out, whilst calling their parents idiots who "dont get it."

Noones spying on my data on my PC because unlike you (seemingly at least) i know how to configure my home network. Good place to start is with a whitelist. If you think the NSA can just barge into every home network regardless of the owners technical skill, again you need to educate yourself. This is technical application, NOT MAGIC. The NSA doesnt have a magical gateway into everyones data. Plus, data has to be shared. Shared data (internet traffic) is generally encrypted with keys that would take server blocs some YEARS to cr ack by brute force. Have fun sharing those keys with the NSA and keeping that fact from employees and the general public. Dirty secrets have a habit of coming to light eventually, if not quickly.

Theres no requirement to prove anything in court, as Blizzard isnt going to take such a boneheaded risk that is GUARANTEED to result in swift repercussions when its proven to a judge within a week if they did take it. I know they arent doing it, merely because its such a large risk that WILL bite them in the butt. I dont need data to tell me Blizzard is erring on the side of common sense. If they werent, itd be a given that theyd have taken it up the rear by now.

Im done here. If it wasnt obvious how little the HB community in general knows about Warden, it should be now. Anything that is disagreed with or not understood as fact by the person will be called speculation. Its not speculation, youre just ignorant. That means the HB community is rather useless to the devs and Bossland. As i said in my first post.

 

[ryftobuddy]

So you just want us to take your word for it? For someone that pretends to be so knowledgeable about things, you really come across as mildly retarded...

Let me give you a few facts, since you seem to not know what facts are:

1. You have provided zero facts in any of your posts
2. You have given zero proof that anything you've said is true
3. Everyone that has said you're speculating is correct
4. I am not your friend, I actually loathe you
5. If you want people to trust anything you've said, you have to give them reason to trust what you're saying as true (such as giving actual facts)
6. Telling people to trust you and go educate themselves makes you sound like you don't know what you're talking about, since you can't actually explain anything to them

I'm not even going to comment on your "noone could possibly ever spy on me" comments...

Keep on acting all high and mighty though. You're bound to make loads of friends in life with your amazing attitude.

 

[asrah]

So you just want us to take your word for it? For someone that pretends to be so knowledgeable about things, you really come across as mildly retarded...

Let me give you a few facts, since you seem to not know what facts are:

1. You have provided zero facts in any of your posts
2. You have given zero proof that anything you've said is true
3. Everyone that has said you're speculating is correct
4. I am not your friend, I actually loathe you
5. If you want people to trust anything you've said, you have to give them reason to trust what you're saying as true (such as giving actual facts)
6. Telling people to trust you and go educate themselves makes you sound like you don't know what you're talking about, since you can't actually explain anything to them

I'm not even going to comment on your "noone could possibly ever spy on me" comments...

Keep on acting all high and mighty though. You're bound to make loads of friends in life with your amazing attitude.

Do your research, youd realize that what i said is true. Its ok, some people just arent smart enough to realize that calling "speculation" isnt a valid counter argument. Have fun with your stupidity. Im sure it serves you well, daily.

I havent expected anyone to take the word of someone whos educated. Ive expected to be called all manners of stupid, and insulted. Why? Well, i did mention that the HB community is ignorant of the facts about Warden, and is useless to the team. Period, end of story.

Stay ignorant man, its apparently a better choice for you to call me stupid and to say im speculating instead of doing research and coming to the same conclusions pretty much everyone else came to afterwards.

By the way, i said noone can spy on my home network. That is fact, because if an IP isnt whitelisted, its attempts to communicate are REJECTED. I didnt say anything about my traffic once it leaves that home network. Its not as easy for the NSA to spy as you like to think. They arent intercepting traffic nearly as often as they are getting fed information from companies like Facebook and Twitter. Traffic they intercept is generally not encrypted, or is heading to a destination for which they have the key. If they didnt have the encryption key/s for Facebook, they wouldnt bother intercepting the traffic. Its a waste of resources to intercept traffic that you cant read. The government doesnt have unlimited computing power.

 

[ryftobuddy]

You're right, it is better choice for me to call you stupid, since you continue to prove that as a fact.

 

[asrah]

You're right, it is better choice for me to call you stupid, since you continue to prove that as a fact.

Then do the research instead of continuing here. Youll find that im in fact correct about Warden. Scared of learning? Would it bruise your over inflated ego to prove yourself wrong? Are you mentally challenged? Do you actually think calling speculation on everything makes it speculation? You think a popular opinion that is speculation makes it speculation? Try addressing me without logical fallacies. Can you do it?

By the way bud, i make friends all the time. Whys that? Its only people over the internet that think im some kind of idiot ... And im a nice guy. Let that sink in.

Where's your proof of this fact? I have seen zero evidence that this is true, but if you'd like to provide it, I may actually believe something you've written.

Do ... some ... FUCKING ... RESEARCH. You act like there arent a few dozen private servers that figured out the versions of Warden alongside WoW up to MOP. At one point i worked for 4 of them in a year. Thats not my only source of info though. I have a family member in Blizzards ranks. They talk to me ALL THE TIME about how people are getting banned for botting because its very easy to discern between human action and bot action. He doesnt know how Warden works, but he has handled a few bans himself, and talked to coworkers who have. WOD version is probably more invasive than ive given it credit for, but the events in the situations point to the nature of these bans lacking consistent theme besides people getting reported/monitored for doing risky things like botting in BGs or gathering.

 

[Quixor]

Why does he have to do research, you're the one posting. It's on you to prove your statement.

 

[asrah]

Why does he have to do research, you're the one posting. It's on you to prove your statement.

I already proved my statement that the HB community is useless to the dev team. Its not on me to dig through forums posts spanning years, and text files with notes that i no longer have access to because i havent spoken to the heads of those servers in 1.5 years now. If they want information specific to Wardens functionalities, thats on them to get. If they are unable to recognize that if HB was "detected" in normal anti cheat fashion, ANYONE who uses HonorBuddy would get a ban as soon as a GM got to the report, thats their problem. Thats not up for debate, its fact. Theres no doomsday inevitable for HB. Trying to "help" the dev team with hypotheses that are frankly polar opposite to how Warden operates and what Blizzard is capable of doing with its finite but vast computing power is useless to them. Theres really very little danger in HBs face right now.

Learning about anti cheat in general would give them valuable insight to how and why certain en masse things arent happening. Like perma bans whenever someone hooks HB into Direct X to interact with the client. That doesnt happen cause thats not how Warden works. It doesnt bother with things that hook into Direct X, because overlays like overwolf would trigger Warden. Heck, anything that hooks into Direct X and causes interaction with the client (including but not limited to the Bnet launcher itself) would trigger Warden (if not added to an exceptions list). Dont tell me the Bnet launcher doesnt interact with the client. It logs you into the game automatically if youre logged into a Bnet account in the launcher.

 

[gwss]

The whole back and forth discussion on Warden, Detection and Law items made for some entertaining reading . However Warden policies ARE restricted hence you can't have access to how it actually works, there is no way of finding that out (nor should it be as it would be opening dev's the door to circumvent it) so if asrah is so gun ho on saying he positively knows the conclusion that can be made are the following (no particular order)
1.- He either is /was a former member of Blizz Dev staff or affiliated to a company that gave access to , and as such due to massive NDA"s he is not at liberty to openly say it (but he can simple state assessment one could be correct, which legally would not be a traceable breach of NDA).
2.- He has access to this so called educated information , be it restricted or not. (maybe due to same NDA's) and I would appreciate the sharing of those informational parts be it in PM or by providing good search criterias, I for one always give the benefit of the doubt to people. so would welcome any breadcrum he can provide so we can go educate ourselves as he has stated multiple times.
3.- It is a matter of fact that botting of any form (be it Questing, Farming or Combat routines = Cheating and considering that we may represent say 100K or less on a base of 10 Mill subscribers give or take) it is very well understandable that from a ROI and TCO of detection programs (be it manual automated or otherwise in between) is indeed not financially feasible as such, however!:
4,- I will contradict one thing from a technical perspective though; considering the heavy decline of subscriptions and the insane amount of servers they physically own it IS very much possible to create full logs of servers and have dedicated sniffers on those logs to purge it . (criterias beind 32bit, Click to walk and Frequency , these are simple statements that are easily run on flat files) So making an adamant statement about Blizz not being able to do log analysis not true.(again TCO/ROI for this is not up to me to consider but Blizz internally probably has)
5.- On existing repetitive botting things like Kicks, it is fairly easy to trace and ban based on item 4, these I totally get from Blizz perspective (the so called low hanging fruit) ; the puzzling thing is about things that are more complex to track like combat routines...but then again ...I did my research and a combat routine can do basically continuosly an above average amount of 'clicks' per minute, 10 sec interval, which then make it also easy to trace by Blizz. you look at combat logs ; and again witht he subscription decline they have plenty of hardware to run those logs ; and run a battle log algorithm to that effect too
6.- He has stated that he is undetectable, that is not true we all are one way or another because simply put, 32 bit plus click to move and the frequency of clicks to move is constant (yes I did analyze this myself!) hence simply this part of how we work with HB and any subprogramming thereof IS detectable (is it worth the hassle and effort? see above )
7.- He does enjoy responding repetitvely to trolls statements in same trolling fashion ; so before I get a reply please don;t tell me to educate myself !; tell me where and how to get your insight ; I align to some of your statements but I also concur with some of the responders with the same question ; give us intel on where to get it , or how to search for it to get to your level of education/understanding.

and to finalize; HB is a great aide to circumvent the endless grinding and questing ; but Bossland has stated it always, BOTTING IS ILEGAL; if you value your account don;t do it! and if that means you can't keep up with the pace well ....that means you probably have a life in reality ....and that is a good thing too! (even blizz states that )

To all in this thread I say; detectable or not, it does not matter!; if you value your account don;t do it, if you do and get caught don;t whine about it! new account or walk away ...Blizz will not condone it as it did in the past and that iIS A FACT!...Have a great 4th of july all.

 

[anonym23]

someone please close this aggrevating thread please